Therapy Natters

Are You A Fully Functioning Person?

• Richard Nicholls • Season 2 • Episode 24

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This week Richard & Fiona delve into theories from Maslow and Carl Rogers on becoming fully functioning individuals.


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Richard:

And hello to you therapy fans. Here we go again with another Therapy Natters episode. This is the podcast series where two psychotherapists have a good Natter about therapy or something like that on the off chance that someone likes what we say. I'm Richard Nicholls, and with me, as always, is my good friend and colleague, Fiona Biddle. Hi there, Fiona.

Fiona:

Hi, Richard.

Richard:

What's going on with you today?

Fiona:

about to go on an imaginary holiday cause I can't go on a real one, so I'm going to go on an imaginary one, which has lots of advantages. You know, there's no travel, um, no mosquitoes, no sunburn, everything works perfectly. And, booze costs exactly the same as it does at local Tesco

Richard:

Booze. Is that what you're going on holiday for?

Fiona:

Not going for it, but a glass of wine to accompany the meal from whichever place I happen to be at would be a nice thing.

Richard:

You have spoken in the past I think in series one you spoke about an imaginary holiday.'cause You did it during lockdown. Unless I talked about it, on my Podcast. I might have done, I

Fiona:

Uh, yeah. I mean, I did do one during lockdown.

Richard:

Yeah. We had no choice but

Fiona:

Yeah. Yes.

Richard:

didn't we? And can you, do you wanna explain to our dear listeners what you're on about with an imaginary holiday? What you're gonna do

Fiona:

It's just that you can go anywhere in any sort of way. So one, one place that I've planned for next week is to go to Churchill in Canada, which I think is the northern most town or city or something. But, and then you can do some trips. So you can go and look at polar bears. But in that place to go and look at the polar bears, it takes several days, but it doesn't have to in your imagination. You can do it in one day. You can go in a helicopter and, and the helicopters in your imagination aren't going to disturb the polar bears, which they might in real life. This Is probably gonna take up maybe 10% of my waking hours, if that, but it's just something to think about and I'll try to do more of the things that I would do on holiday, such as reading a book, rather than the things that I tend to do when I'm at home, like work. So it'll, it, it's just pushing it a little bit more into, I am on holiday. And

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

could, if I sit in, if the weather's nice enough, I can sit in the garden and read a book and pretend that I'm sitting by a pool in wherever it happens to be.

Richard:

Mm. Yeah.

Fiona:

Or if it's in Churchill in Canada wrapped up in a nice, warm blanket, sitting, looking over a lake. So you just think of it. That's all.

Richard:

And it sounds really easy. So you just daydream about being on holiday and it'll make you feel as if you're on holiday. But it does.

Fiona:

I mean, it's not as good. But as I said, there are so many advantages.

Richard:

Absolutely, And I think what we need though, in order to enjoy all of this, is the right mindset because it's so easy to be disappointed if your expectations aren't met. To have this bar in your mind that says, unless I'm having this sort of life, unless I'm having this sort of experience, it's not good enough. And looking at these images, even if it's in your imagination or doing something on virtual reality or something, it's not good enough. I want to be there. I don't wanna see an exhibition in Digbeth of the Sistine Chapel. I wanna go to the real Sistine Chapel. Well, maybe those smaller experiences are good enough to make you happy. To help you self-actualise if we want to go that far, through Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Fiona:

I think there's different things you can get from the different ways of doing these things. I mean, I'm not suggesting that anybody just stays at home and doesn't travel, but if you can't, then do it that way.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

So it is about being open to experience and different ways of experiencing.

Richard:

I think a lot of this boils down to gratitude. There's no point having these experiences if you don't appreciate them. If you don't experience, and really get into the experience. Whatever experience that is, and it doesn't have to be big. It can be walking to the post office. That can be something that you're grateful for. That can be something you experience and enjoy. Really get into how that feels to walk to the post office.

Fiona:

And I think you only need to look at little children, to see this. This is a, an opinion that I'm going to give. So feel free to disagree with me. Absolutely fine. But in my model of the world, there's no point taking children on really expensive holidays to experience something. Because they're not going to get any more outta it than if they went somewhere else.

Richard:

Yeah, And they can, they can go to the park and jump in a puddle and

Fiona:

Yes. I mean it's a bit like that old thing of that they get as much fun playing with the cardboard box as they do the toy. So to me it's save the experiences till the time when they can appreciate it. That's not necessarily in terms of being thankful. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. No, it's about appreciate recognising what it is that they're doing, and feeling good about having that experience and to be able to remember it.

Richard:

Yes. And having the right meaning around that experience. Like walking to the post office. well, You get to do that. If you're able to walk to the post office and I recognise some people can't.

Fiona:

I can't. I could, I could. No, no, but I mean, well, my post office is a long way away, but, but yeah, that absolutely, it's about recognising and being appreciative of how modern technology has allowed us to be able to, in quote, visit other places.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

The David Attenborough films, et cetera, that nobody, I mean, the vast majority of the stuff he does, nobody ever experiences or very, very, very, very few people ever experienced. But we all can. because of this stuff. So, you know, That's that's just wonderful, isn't it? So it's, we, we are so much more able, and this is the first of the, the topics on the subject that we are doing today as being open to experience. We've got so much more experience that we can be open to,

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

but, and say it can be the, the mundane, it can be the walk to the post office. It can be having something different to eat,

Richard:

Hmm. Yeah.

Fiona:

trying something that you haven't tried before. Try it. Try anything and, and everything within reason.

Richard:

I was thinking about, I used the phrase self-actualisation earlier, so it put me in mind of obviously Maslow's hierarchy of needs and I do think people need to check in with those and make sure they are getting their needs met in the right order, I suppose, cause we can so easily look towards moving further up the hierarchy of needs and we're looking for a connection to others and a sense of belonging or intimacy and ignoring the ones underneath that. Like, are you getting enough sleep? Are you drinking enough water?

Fiona:

Are you safe?

Richard:

Yeah. Are you safe? Yes. Yeah. Whatever that means.

Fiona:

I just seem to have seen so many things, or heard so many stories lately about people who are being gaslit and are not in a safe environment in their homes or lives generally. I mean, that's, the base of the hierarchy. I mean that tends to be more physical safety.'cause I think he probably wasn't quite as aware as we are now about psychological safety. But it's still absolutely fundamental.

Richard:

Hmm. Well this was early forties?

Fiona:

yeah, I think, think around that sort of time and he didn't have wifi in there. I mean obviously'cause wifi would be on the bottom level.

Richard:

Well, was Maslow Jewish?

Fiona:

Yes. What's that connection to wifi?

Richard:

Well, no. When I was thinking about him doing stuff in the early 1940s?

Fiona:

right.

Richard:

that lot of his opinions might have been skewed and based on a lot of the dangers that was going on for him and the people that he had a sense of belonging with. But he was an American. And I'm pretty sure that the, the persecution of the Jews that went on through Europe at the time, that feeling would've spread, and there would've been a lot of danger, a lot of fear. And. Maslow published his ideas about the hierarchy of needs just after the war, so,

Fiona:

Well towards the end of the war, but yeah.

Richard:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

Fiona:

yeah. 43, I think.

Richard:

yeah, he'd have been working on that all throughout. Reading about the rise of the right wing European dangers. And the persecution of the Jews.

Fiona:

Yeah. So he, he, yes, he would've, he would've known that the Jews were being persecuted. They wouldn't have known the extent of it, but they knew it was happening.

Richard:

There was a lot of psychologists that came after the war that had lived through it, that had been in concentration camps and got through it and were looking at how. How did some people get through this

Fiona:

Yeah.

Richard:

well. And some just crumbled

Fiona:

Frankl is the prime example. Yeah.

Richard:

Frankl. Yes. Man's search for meaning,

Fiona:

which

Richard:

is a tough read, but worth it if you've got some time to sit and go through that. Yeah. It's astonishing what humans are capable of doing, And

Fiona:

in that case, it's allowing access to all emotions appropriately.

Richard:

Mm-hmm.

Fiona:

I mean, I'm sure we've said this before, but emotions aren't categorised as positive or negative to me, they're appropriate or inappropriate. So, you know, you shouldn't be jumping up and down with joy if somebody's kicked your dog.

Richard:

we don't need to go to anger management because they kicked your dog. Yep. That's the right feeling to have.

Fiona:

But, it's, it's pretty common for people to get them muddled up.

Richard:

yeah.

Fiona:

So that is one of the things about being a fully functioning person, and perhaps we ought to at this point say what we're talking about, which is the Carl Rogers theory of the fully functioning person. Which is our sort of conclusion to our episodes on Evolve to Thrive, because that's what we are building towards our participants our subscribers being, when they've gone through the programme.

Richard:

Hmm. Carl Rogers came after Maslow, so this is sixties. really. I mean, He was doing a lot of his work probably in the fifties

Fiona:

Yeah,

Richard:

but his books

Fiona:

on becoming a person, which is his primary work, I would say, was 1960.

Richard:

What was it? On

Fiona:

Yes. There,

Richard:

Oh.

Fiona:

I mean, I can't see the date from here, but I can see the book. I know that one.

Richard:

And we do have some trainee therapists that listen to Therapy Natters, because we, we have had a message come through from one, we'll talk about that in the next series, But Roger's stuff is an absolute foundation to how to be a therapist. And what therapy is or what therapy can be. And not many things stand the test of time, Roger's stuff has. Rogers, Freud. Not all of Freud and not all of Roger's either.'cause these things are constantly evolving, but these names still hang around all these years later for a reason. Because they are really useful to take on board and Rogers. You know, people talk about the dinner party. If you could have a Dinner party with anybody around there, Freud, and Carl Rogers, please. Absolutely.

Fiona:

You could just sit back and watch, couldn't you?

Richard:

Oh, it'd

Fiona:

Oh, let's have, let's have Carl Jung in the mix, but he's, it's gonna have to be quite a long dinner party, I think. And he might need a facilitator to say, you've had your time now over to you. you know, the idea that they I mean this is a bit simplistic, but they often do in couples therapy or something where they give them a cushion or something and you, when you've got, you only talk if you are holding a cushion. I'm just imagining that with those three,

Richard:

Yes, whoever's got the cigar.

Fiona:

That would be interesting'cause I think it would be interesting to see how they are in terms of this model. Because, one of them I've got on the list here is no need to deny or distort experience and can trust own interpretations. Wonder how they'd all do on that. And lack of defensiveness able to be wrong and say so.

Richard:

yes. is that the mark of a fully functional, fully functioning human

Fiona:

Yeah,

Richard:

you

Fiona:

You can say, oh, got that wrong,

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Sorry. And learn from it

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

And move on.

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

But just in terms of people listening, you don't have to be perfect on this. You can be defensive for a bit and then go, oh. Yeah. Okay. And do this in your head and then do it out loud if necessary.'cause you don't even always necessarily have to say it out loud,

Richard:

But without shame,

Fiona:

but without shame. It's about learning and, yeah. Okay. I got that wrong. Yeah, I got that wrong. Okay. Won't do that again.

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

We're human beings.

Richard:

Yeah. When a toddler is learning to walk and it struggles and it falls over, it doesn't think to itself, Oh, I can't do this then can I? I'll just stay down here. Because it hasn't yet developed the cognitive skills to stop itself from learning. Adults can.

Fiona:

We

Richard:

can get in our own way and go, oh, I can't do that. Well, maybe that's why. Maybe that mindset is why, and I understand why that mindset is there. I can't do it means I'm not gonna try to do it. Therefore I won't fail and I won't be disappointed in myself. But will you be happy? Oh, I've never been happy.

Fiona:

if you've got a defense mechanism that, I mean, we can't survive without them. But if there's one that's defending a part of you. It's always good to have that little look at it, to see what it's defending, whether it's necessary. So if you are in a relationship with somebody, whether that's a romantic relationship or a friendship, and there's something that you are not letting that other person have access to, and perhaps that bit's doing something in terms of, sort of lashing out. Or saying the wrong things or doing the wrong things. Then allow yourself to analyse it and see where that's coming from.

Richard:

Mm.

Fiona:

Acknowledge it, and then you can change it.

Richard:

This is gonna be a lot easier for people if they've got a therapist to help'em with it, of course. But would you say there's still a lot that can be done without one?

Fiona:

Gosh, yes. I mean, absolutely. Because once, once you start the ball rolling on developing these skills, ways of being to be a fully functioning person, well it is like a ball rolling or a, a snowball or whatever it is, because you learn from one and then that will help teach you the next bit.

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

Sort of get the foundations and then you can build on those. So another one is willing and able to embrace change that you're only willing and able to embrace change if you are able to accept that perhaps you didn't do something quite right, you're not perfect and you've accepted it. You've apologised or, or done something different and you can move on. That's what change is about.

Richard:

A lot of people come to therapy talking about their emotions and how they're feeling, like anxiety and say, I don't want to feel this. I don't want to be anxious. And of course what they mean by that is I don't want to be anxious in a situation where I'm not supposed to be. Because obviously anxiety is there to keep you safe. It's there to stop you from walking into the lion's den and getting eaten by leopards and cave bears. Keeping away from danger is a good idea, but our brain can get confused about how much danger is in something. And so what we want is to be able to regulate that anxiety. There's a phrase Everybody uses, and it's a popular phrase and it's been used for years. Feel the fear and do it anyway. It's okay to be nervous about something. It's, okay to to not be at your best, so-called if you're gonna be trying something different or new. A new experience. To be open-minded. But, the opposite to be risk averse, Yeah. we don't populate the planet that way either. So there's a nice middle ground isn't there?

Fiona:

I was talking to an old friend the other day who was asking me about my work, and she said she just didn't get anxiety. She didn't really know what it was. She said that she gets nervous sometimes,

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

and I thought, well, that's just a terminology thing. when I first started in practice, nobody said anxiety, they said stress or that they were nervous, or I live on my nerves, or I suffer with my nerves. Those sorts of phrases. But it's just semantics. It's just words for the same thing. And getting rid of anxiety, which of course an awful lot of clients actually want us to do. That would be completely the wrong thing to do. As you said, we need it. And it's fine, but it's about balance of course.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Next one is to have a flexible self concept.

Richard:

Mm-hmm.

Fiona:

What does that mean to you? I say that Richard.

Richard:

To not be quite so rigid that says, but this is the sort of person I am. I can only do this. This is the only sort of book I can read. This is the only sort of TV program I can watch. This is the only style of food that I can eat. And that can limit ourselves and that mindset can crossover into everything. This is the only sort of job that I can do. This is the only sort of language that I can speak. This is the only sort of instrument that I can or can't play. And yeah, we want to, we wanna recognise that just because we don't go to school anymore doesn't mean we can't learn something new. Whatever it is that we want to learn.

Fiona:

We've talked in the past probably more than. I feel we should have, but from me, this is not from you about programs like Love Island. They so often say, this is who I am.

Richard:

We are not set in stone. Our personalities aren't set in

Fiona:

Marriage at marriage at first sight. That's a key one. They'll say, this is who I am. if you don't like it, this is who I am. You don't have to be, um, within reason. Obviously there are things that we can't change, but an awful lot we can. So it's about being flexible, but saying, okay, maybe I can be a bit more this or a bit less that.

Richard:

The labels that we give ourselves. And those can start when we are very young and for lots of weird reasons, we can have a label of, I was talking about this with some friends last week and I was perfectly okay with my friend saying this, by the way. So if he's listening, it was fine. But when I left my middle school, I guess I was 11 or something, like that. When you go up to high school, I was given a certificate. Lots of people got given these little awards. I dunno what everybody else's were. There was probably one for footballer of the Year or something like that. Mine was Joker of the Year.

Fiona:

Oh,

Richard:

Joker, yeah.

Fiona:

oh.

Richard:

And I didn't like it. I didn't like that label. And when I said that to my friend on Wednesday and he went, But you are. I mean, yeah, I know, but I, I guess I don't want to be, he went, Do you not? And a part of me does, but I,

Fiona:

Don't want that to be singled out as the thing that you are. Yes.

Richard:

As an 11-year-old, I didn't want to only be the joker that you can't take seriously. No. There is a big element of that in me, of course there is. But I didn't want that to be all of me and that label could have stuck. And maybe it did a little bit and nothing's a problem unless it causes problems. But those labels can come from lots of places. Teachers, parents, astrology horoscopes. Ooh you're a Libra you?, Oh, you're a Pisces. Oh, can't possibly have my daughter dating a Scorpio. What? But people will think that. Maybe not so much anymore.'cause we don't take it quite as seriously as people did. But people did, and maybe still do. And I, I don't want to disrespect, he says laughing, sounds quite disrespectful. I'm so sorry.'cause I don't fully understand astrology. All I look at is the research that's been done to see that it's likely nonsense, and it does seem that it is nonsense, it has no bearing on any of these personality traits. The time you were born or the day you were born. If, there are, the only correlation we find is if there's also a correlation with what time of year that that culture starts school then there is, because yeah, there is an advantage if you're the oldest in the class or a disadvantage. Depending on how you take it. It's'cause of that. Nothing to do with your horoscope, but if you've got this label that you've given yourself that, well this is me, huh? I'm a Pisces, what am I gonna do? Challenge it. Be more sagittarius, half man, half horse.

Fiona:

going back to what you were saying about the fact that labels are given to us,

Richard:

Mm

Fiona:

I think it's just impossible to avoid. But what everybody can do is to reevaluate the labels that were put on them. And for parents, help your children to evaluate rather than reevaluate as they're getting their labels.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

So, if, a 9-year-old comes home from school and says that. My teacher said, dot, dot, dot. Talk to that child about what that means. It doesn't have to necessarily stick, but some of them will, of course because it's happening all the time. So, encourage that process of reevaluation and for any adults listening,'cause presumably it's adults listening, just go through, think about what the labels were that were put on you, as children. What right did that person have to put that label on you? Really. You might have felt that they did'cause they had some sort of authority over you. Did they really?

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

So it's self-concept is a really fascinating thing. I love working with that, with clients as to who are you, who actually are you? And then who can you be?

Richard:

It could be quite hard work and a little bit scary for some

Fiona:

Oh yeah.

Richard:

Clients, when I've asked, let's

Fiona:

get

Richard:

know you, i'd like to get to know you, and they go, ugh, I don't even know me. They could be 50 and they still don't know themselves because of the looking glass self, which I know we spoke about briefly before. Charles Horton Cooley I think was the guy that came up with it in the early 1900's. The looking glass self. I am not, who I think I am. And I am not who you think I am. I am who I think you think I am. And if we can spend so much time worrying about what other people think, being for somebody else, we do lose ourselves. And if that starts when we are little, that starts when we are six years old that says, I only exist in this family system. I only have value if. Things are only good if, that I'm only safe if mum's in a good mood. So I'll make sure that mum's in a good mood and that becomes who they are. Making sure that everybody around them,'cause we internalise that and that system in the family becomes the world system. I'm oversimplifying some complicated psychological theories, sure, but that's how I see it. They internalise family system until it becomes the whole world and then they're trying to please everybody because when they were six, they were trying to make sure their mum was in a good mood so that they did get fed that night.'cause sometimes they didn't. And like I was talking about with Maslow, if those the bottom of the hierarchy of needs aren't being met, you can't progress through the rest, it's worth challenging. It really is,

Fiona:

Absolutely. So the final one is, accepts the past, lives in the present, and embraces the future.

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

Now we've talked about time perspectives before again,'cause this is a conclusion to our second series. Of course we're gonna have talked about these things before, but it's a really interesting idea. I feel, is to be aware of your time perspective. And it will vary from time to time, but if you are on a holiday, for example, real or imaginary, it's a good idea to be in the present because that's what you're there for, is to be in that, not to be sitting on your bus going from Prague to Vienna or on the safari in Sri Lanka, looking at imaginary elephants, whatever it is. You don't want to be doing that and thinking, God, you know, three years ago at Christmas when Uncle Bob said such and such. And I said dot, dot, dot, that was really not a good, that's daft. As is sitting there, and thinking, what should we do next week? Where should we go next? And I dunno about you, but it's something that I find I do when I'm on holiday, real or imagined, is I think about the next holiday.

Richard:

Oh yeah.

Fiona:

That's, no.

Richard:

Enjoy the one you're on

Fiona:

Enjoy the one you are on. But there are times when the present isn't the right place to be. it's better in this present time if there's something troubling. You might want to spend more time in the past to be looking at why the present is as it is, so you can be reflecting on the past as the cause for the present. So sometimes reflection on the past is a good thing. And there are other times when if the present isn't really, exactly how you'd want it to be, you might want to spend more time in the future and thinking about how you can get to a better future from this. Not very good present.

Richard:

and that's the important thing. A lot of people just daydream about the future that they want and they don't think about the steps in between that are gonna take them to create the future that they want. that's the odd thing about our imagination, is that if you daydream about something wonderful happening, it will feel as if something wonderful is happening, which is nice. It's good escapism. But actually it doesn't motivate us to make change because there's this little feeling that something wonderful is happening and then there's a bit of a crash when no it's not. And then we just jump between the two. This daydream of, well, I've just gotta live in my daydreams'cause it's the only place I'm happy. Oh no. Look at the steps to take you to where you want to be, whatever that is. Whatever goals somebody might have. And everybody's got different goals, whether it's financial goals, career-wise goals, relationship goals. If you've got some set them well, what are you gonna do about getting them?

Fiona:

That's, yes, that's what, um, Evolve To Thrive really is about. It's about finding out who you are, who you want to be, and how to get there.

Richard:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but it does mean, as you say, sometimes looking into the past and going, so how did I get here? And is to answer questions of, well, is this why I feel the way that I feel sometimes? Is it because of sometimes I feel like, like what? Well, here's a feeling, but you play with it and go, yeah, I feel like a 7-year-old, or I feel like an 11-year-old being given a certificate that they're joker of the year. You know?

Fiona:

Yeah. What would I have got? I don't get a good feeling about it as I think, what would I have got? I dunno what I would've got, but I don't, it does, it doesn't feel good.

Richard:

It's not one that would make you feel proud?

Fiona:

No, I don't think so.

Richard:

is, you'd think the whole point of

Fiona:

Yeah.

Richard:

Sort of ceremonies and, I know it was well-meaning.

Fiona:

Yes. And so often the things that cause problems are well-meaning. Adults don't tend to want to cause harm to children.

Richard:

Mm.

Fiona:

They're saying things that are meant to help, but they just get it wrong.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

And the ones where they've got it wrong, stick so much. They're so much stickier than the ones that are okay.

Richard:

Sadly, yes,

Fiona:

You're great at maths. Off it goes. Slips off like a slippery thing.

Richard:

But, you can be an idiot sometimes,

Fiona:

Sticks,

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Velcro. Yeah.

Richard:

And that's just the way the brain works, unfortunately, because here we are, Uh, I'm not an evolutionary psychologist. And I think in another universe, if the multiverse exists, maybe I am'cause it, it is an interest of mine'cause it, it explains so much. How did we populate the planet and what is it about us that makes us different from a lot of other creatures? What have we done differently? Well, lots of different things. It's not just all about the thumbs. That's helped, obviously, but it's also about our community and how we work together. And that has meant that some things good for the species and some things aren't. And the things aren't good for us, like not having anxiety about strangers and if we don't have anxiety about strangers? And famously the species that didn't was the dodo bird. That was very curious of, oh, hello, what are we doing? ooh you're picking me up? Where are we going? It's dark in this bag, what's going on? Bash, bash, bash

Fiona:

Oh,

Richard:

they shouldn't have been so damn tasty.

Fiona:

I wasn't expecting to feel empathy for a dodo when we started this conversation.

Richard:

but that was the thing. They were just curious because they had never experienced danger. They'd been secluded on this island for so many, however many thousands of years, and they'd never had predators. So when a predator did arrive, us humans. They were just curious and interested. And so we ate them because that's what humans blooming do. So yeah, it's okay to be anxious because we don't wanna be a dodo bird. But if that was hardwired in when you were seven, or eight, or nine, or three or 14. or Any age through trauma then we need to examine that past and go, well, is this why I feel like I feel now. So then we can challenge it. Because if you tell your brain, I shouldn't feel this way, it's not gonna stop it. Cognitively knowing I shouldn't feel this way, I'm gonna stop feeling this way. I'll have this medication, or I'll take this drink, or I'll smoke this thing and I won't feel this way. Your Basic biology is still trying to make you feel that way and actually will probably ramp it up so you feel it even more.

Fiona:

If you're not taking it seriously, you'll have more of it. Here you go. Take it seriously. No, I'm not taking it serious. Here's more. Yeah.

Richard:

This is why people have what we used to call a nervous breakdown. Why people might have bouts of chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia that they can't get outta bed. Because signals were there for decades saying, look after yourself, rest, look, will you look after yourself, please? Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you. I'm gonna make you. and It might start with a twitch or eczema or asthma might start with something I'm making you rest, making you rest. And if you don't, eventually it'll overtake and go, well, I'm gonna, force you. There's an old phrase, isn't there? If you don't make time for wellness, you'll have to make time for illness. And it's true. So we need to make time for wellness. We really do. Well that's a, that's a nice place to end.

Fiona:

Indeed the end of our second series.

Richard:

We will be back at some point very soon,

Fiona:

We are still here, so you can still WhatsApp us for example. Um, usually get a response pretty quickly unless I happen to miss it, but usually it's very quick. Uh, so yeah. do be, have a have a chat.

Richard:

Yeah. Have a chat. Yeah. And if you wanna send us some anonymous stuff, you can, SMS text us. There's a link in the show notes a few people have with some questions that we can put in for season three when we start doing that. we'll deal with that after the summer. We'll start talking about that and we'll be back soon enough. Don't worry. If you need anything, you know where to find us. Have a lovely time. You lovelies, and we'll speak to you again very, very soon.

Fiona:

Bye-bye.

People on this episode

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Fiona Biddle

Host
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Richard Nicholls

Host