Therapy Natters

Cognitive Dissonance

• Richard Nicholls • Season 2 • Episode 21

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This week Richard & Fiona are nattering about cognitive dissonance, its implications, and how to manage it.


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Richard:

Hey, hey, podcast fans. It's time yet again for another episode of Therapy Natters. Where two psychotherapists hop onto their microphones and have a little natter about all things therapy. Talk therapy, anyway. Please don't ask us about Reiki healing. Well, I mean, you can ask us. Don't expect much of an answer. How you doing Fiona? You ever had Reiki healing?

Fiona:

I did actually go for an appointment for Reiki healing, but that's not what I got. she said, I'm a hypnotherapist and I think that'd be better, but I was already a hypnotherapist by then, so, yeah, that wasn't a good experience,

Richard:

Huh.

Fiona:

I used to, when I used to do in the early days, used to do press advertising

Richard:

Hmm. Yeah.

Fiona:

and the number of people who would phone up,'cause obviously it was all phone calls, and ask for physiotherapy. That was,

Richard:

Oh,

Fiona:

that was quite common.

Richard:

Yeah, I've had reiki healing once, and you see I'm quite, am I cynical? No, I'm very open minded and that's a problem. No, it's not a problem. It's okay to be open-minded. But if you're open-minded, then you gotta just gotta be careful that your brain doesn't fall out.'cause you're so open-minded. And I did have an experience and at one point it was as if she was shining. Hello Susan, if you're listening. She was shining an otoscope under my eyelids. You know, one of those things, you look in your ear with those lights.

Fiona:

Otto is ear. Yep.

Richard:

I thought, what's she doing that for? And I opened my eyes to see what she was doing. She wasn't doing anything. She was just standing there with her eyes closed with her hands over my face. Yeah. And I thought, that's odd. And I explained that to her afterwards and she went, yeah, I'd expect that that's part of the energy moving. Right. But I thought this was all placebo.

Fiona:

It is funny when you, when you said I am and then sort of paused, waiting for the right word to come in to fill your own gap, I was filling that gap with my own.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Suggestions and what, where I was coming from was because I think we, we are both quite rational in our approach to therapy, we go with things that have a logical basis. You know, we don't necessarily say you have to have had a randomized control trial to see whether hypnotherapy works with this particular form of this particular type of skin condition or something. We can generalize. We don't, we are not going that far to, to, get into the science and we can appreciate the sort of anecdotal evidence as having some weight, but not huge amounts. But yeah, I think with something like reiki, I'm, I'm sort of thinking, well, why?

Richard:

Yeah. And people will say, just works. We dunno why it works. It just works. Why?

Fiona:

But then,

Richard:

Show me why.

Fiona:

I'm contradicting myself here because, I have had some quite good effects with homeopathy,

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

I know the theory of the why, but that theory of the why doesn't make any sense,

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

but my own anecdotal experience is that It can be effective. So I, yeah,

Richard:

And that brings us quite nicely onto today's topic.

Fiona:

it does. And I wasn't doing that deliberately, were you?

Richard:

Of course I was,

Fiona:

Well, I wasn't, but we, yes. So well done. You guided us there to cognitive dissonance, that wonderful phrase, which sounds like it means nothing at all, but actually means an awful lot.

Richard:

Cognitive dissonance. Does it sound like an echo or something?

Fiona:

Cognitive. Most people will know that that's thinking.

Richard:

Yeah,

Fiona:

can handle cognitive, but dissonance.

Richard:

it's like a chord clang.

Fiona:

Yeah. It's not sounding right, isn't it?

Richard:

Mm-hmm.

Fiona:

it's dissonances, things that aren't sounding right, cognitively. And so I think that's not exactly a very good definition.

Richard:

I think that's perfect.

Fiona:

A, better one, simpler one probably makes a bit more sense is, is really sort of holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time.

Richard:

Yeah. because when we do that, something's gotta give.

Fiona:

Well, I don't know if it does'cause sometimes it's okay to do it, so like that saying homeopathy, I don't, really buy into the reason why.

Richard:

hmm.

Fiona:

From a purely logical perspective, I'd say load nonsense. But I have some belief that it can be effective. So that's holding two beliefs at the same time, and that's absolutely fine.

Richard:

Yeah. But something is giving there.'cause what you are changing there is,'cause you've got two ideas. One that says the way homeopaths talk about homeopathy doesn't stand up to scrutiny and does not work. But my experience says it does. So what you're changing there I think is the way homeopaths talk about homeopathy is clearly wrong because that has been studied time after time.

Fiona:

I think I'm able to just put one down

Richard:

Oh, okay.

Fiona:

and not, really worry about it. Yeah. So the question we had, on WhatsApp the other day from Anonymous. There were various bits to it, but this, this particular part was about finding herself being judgemental about people who are obese.

Richard:

Ah.

Fiona:

Knowing that that was wrong and knowing that she would never do anything about it, never say anything, et cetera, but feeling guilty for having the immediate judgment. That's the cognitive dissonance. It's I feel that there's something wrong with this person, but I know that I shouldn't feel that's something wrong with it. I did reply. I tend to do voice note replies to people on the WhatsApp number, I said, but it's human.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

all do that. So the fact that you are able to see that was a judgment and I don't know what's causing this person's issue, not my business, anyway. Recognizing all that, that's the important thing.

Richard:

It is and I think it is human. The default position is to victim blame. To protect ourselves. And I, I hear that in so many different places. In the biggest of places. I heard somebody tell a story that they at a funeral once and somebody said, well, it's their own fault for smoking that they died'cause they got cancer. Well, it's their own fault. It's their own fault they got cancer? I mean maybe, but there's a huge genetic component to that. But if we say that, if we feel that it protects ourself, I'll be okay. I'll be okay.'cause I'm a non-smoker, so I'll be okay. And that's the same for all sorts. The most awful of things, women that are sexually assaulted. Well, what was she wearing? Doesn't matter what she was wearing. Well it does because then I know what not to wear, so it doesn't happen to me. And it's a protection. It is just part of being human. But until you recognize that that's what's going on.

Fiona:

The, the guilt is the overriding.

Richard:

I often think of Aesop's fables and the, the fox and the grapes, sour grapes.'cause that's cognitive dissonance.

Fiona:

Tell us.

Richard:

Not everybody knows the story of the fox and the grapes, but they know the phrase sour grapes. Everybody's heard, oh, sour grapes. They've got sour grapes. A fox is looking for some grapes and he sees some grapes upon the vine, but he can't quite reach them and they look like lovely grapes. So he tries and he tries and he still can't reach those juicy grapes. So he looks at them and he goes. I don't even want them anyway. They're probably sour. And walks away to protect his disappointment. I don't want them anyway. Well, he did want them. But if he walks away with disappointment and feeling sad that he couldn't get what he wanted, then he's gonna hold an uncomfortable feeling. Well to protect that uncomfortable feeling to prevent it. Don't want them. And we do cut off our nose to spite our face sometimes, don't we?

Fiona:

I like, that's a phrase I like, recognizing people who are doing that. Yeah, It's a, it's quite a, a common phenomenon,

Richard:

Yeah, it it is and it doesn't have a nice history, that phrase. Do you want me to tell you

Fiona:

Well, are you sure it's true. It's not an urban legend, what you're gonna say.

Richard:

Fair point. Yes. My understanding, my belief, true or not, maybe it is just a story, is that there was some nuns north UK somewhere. The island was being invaded and, the invaders were regularly sexually assaulting all these women. And so they tried to make themselves as ugly as possible by cutting off their nose. It didn't work. They still burnt the villages to the ground. Maybe it wasn't an island. Maybe it was just a village. Maybe it was just a nunnery. I don't know. I think it's true, These, idioms come from somewhere. They absolutely do. And sour grapes is, is definitely one of them because we don't want to hold those two opposing opinions at the same. I want them, but I'm not having them. So something you has to Yes. So not, yeah. You change your belief.

Fiona:

If it's causing a problem to use your standard phrase, then something needs to shift. But it doesn't, as I say, it doesn't, sometimes you can, you can hold them. and I think the recognition that there is cognitive dissonance going on enables you to choose which you do, you shift something. Or you choose to just keep going with it. And I think it's important to recognize that it's not a problem in and of itself. It's part of the human condition. We all experience cognitive dissonance. In fact, in Yuval Noah Harari's book Sapiens. He talks about cognitive dissonance saying that it's actually not only just something that will happen, but it's necessary as a part of being human, so we don't have to fight it off. We just recognize that it's going to happen, that it's actually can be a good thing.

Richard:

It's, just part of creative thinking, just having an imagination.

Fiona:

It's a crucial element according to him. I mean, that book's great. If any listeners haven't read it. It's a good one, I think, to do on Audible. You can listen to it rather than reading it. but see, he says it's a crucial element, which enables human culture and cooperation. So allowing us to believe in contradictory things, maintains complex societies.

Richard:

I'm just thinking of me this morning normally,'cause we record these on a Friday and normally on a Friday morning I'll try and spend half an hour to 45 minutes doing some vigorous exercise. And I didn't this morning, told myself I was too busy for that.'cause I've got two podcasts to record. Three podcasts to record.'cause there's this one as well.'cause it's, it's the time of the month where I record a public episode and I've got my Monday morning one and I've got this one. I've got a lot on to do today, and there was some things for evolve to thrive I want to do. So I looked at the time and went, I don't have time for that today, and to prevent me from feeling guilty or feeling that there's something wrong with me, that I'm lazy. I had to create the belief that I am too busy for that. But actually I could have made time for that. I could have recorded some of the things that I do this afternoon. Didn't all have to be done this morning. Only got one of them done anyway, because I looked at the time and went, oh, I've gotta see Fiona in half an hour, but my public episodes are only 15 minutes. Yeah. But I've gotta set my microphone up and I've gotta get the lighting right. Well, are we gonna do that anyway for Therapy Natters? Yeah, but I had to tell myself, no, I, I don't have time for that. Rather than say, I think I'm getting a bit of a cold and I'm just not feeling it today.

Fiona:

Yeah. And there's, there's no reason why you can't from time to time say, yeah, just don't want to do that. You don't have to create a, belief system around a reason for

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

I think this is showing to me,'cause that's not sort of world scale.

Richard:

No, it's not gonna mean we invade a country, you know?

Fiona:

but these things do go from tiny micro level right up to major level. And, if you think about some things like religion, and how, I mean, I, I'm not a theologian by any stretch, but what I do know about the Bible, for example, is there are contradictions in the Bible.

Richard:

Oh yes.

Fiona:

I mean, just a simple one is that in the Old Testament it says an eye for an eye. And in the New Testament it says, turn the other cheek.

Richard:

Jesus would not say an eye for an eye.

Fiona:

So,

Richard:

Quite the opposite. Yeah.

Fiona:

so, fundamentalist Christians who believe that the Bible is true, aren't necessarily holding cognitive dissonance.

Richard:

Yep.

Fiona:

Now they tend to find ways around it. I'm generalizing, of course. but they will tend to find a Oh yeah, but that didn't mean quite that, and that was the, so they come up with reasons. And that's what we do with cognitive dissonance. If we are not able to accept it, we're not able to change it. We come up with excuses why we can get to a point of agreement. One example I've used for this is people who are very keen on the environment and climate change activists and so on who use planes, and

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

it's quite fun to watch out for the justifications that

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

come up. And of course, people who are justifying say, oh, it's not a justification, it's a reason.

Richard:

As if there's a difference.

Fiona:

there's, there can be, there are excuses and there are reasons. So,

Richard:

Oh yeah, there's always reasons.

Fiona:

Yeah.

Richard:

you wouldn't be doing it at all. Oh, when I get there is the reason everybody else is doing it.

Fiona:

I mean, the reason I'm not walking from here to wherever I'm going later, is because my back's a little bit bad at the moment. That's a reason that it's not an excuse.

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

So that sort of difference. But it would be very easy when my back is fixed. I've, I I know me well enough to know that I will use it as an excuse.

Richard:

Ah. Oh, that's important to know.

Fiona:

I'm, quite good at that.

Richard:

Okay.

Fiona:

Yeah. But that's similar to what you were saying about your, you not exercising this morning.

Richard:

Yeah. Yeah.

Fiona:

And if we know ourselves well enough, we can just smile at ourselves

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

causing

Richard:

a problem. Yeah.

Fiona:

And one of the things that Harari says in Sapiens is about fiction.

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

and we have that in, in society about how we believe in joint fictions. So the ancient Greeks had their epic tales, the Iliad, the Odysseys, that sort of stuff. And those stories were the foundation for their society. We have various stories, as in a multicultural society that we are, we have various stories underpinning what we go on to. but when we were preparing for this episode, I googled Richard Dawkins cognitive dissonance.'cause I thought he might have a, a good quote on it, which I didn't find. But I did find a site which quoted him.

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

And this site is saying that they think that Richard Dawkins is expressing cognitive dissonance here. Now I wonder what our listeners think. So Dawkins said, For better or worse, ours is historically a Christian culture and children who grow up ignorant of biblical literature are diminished, unable to take literary allusions and are actually impoverished. This site says that that's an example of cognitive dissonance. But I would actually argue that it's not. It's saying you can hold a value from a story.'cause to Dawkins Christianity

Richard:

It's just folklore.

Fiona:

story. Folklore. Mythology. You can take a value from that and have that embedded into your culture

Richard:

Mm.

Fiona:

as a benefit.

Richard:

Hmm, that makes sense to me.

Fiona:

yeah, so I don't think that there's dissonance

Richard:

no, it's, it's, it's not,

Fiona:

would be saying, oh, I got, what would the dissonance be saying? I

Richard:

yeah, Well, it would be, it. would be saying, No, this is just mythology and folklore, but I'm still gonna pray every night just in case.

Fiona:

Yes. Pascal's wager,

Richard:

Yes,

Fiona:

I, I've, I've never understood Pascal's wager. Do you, do you not think that God would see through it and which God are you praying to anyway? There's about 3000, so I

Richard:

Yes.

Fiona:

which, which one are you plumping for? And if you are praying to all of them, that's can take a lot of time. It's all a little bit complicated. But just thinking about stories, we are laughing at a very serious subject here, but, take stories more generally. And I was thinking of Harry Potter and how that has become embedded in our culture that people will use ideas from Harry Potter, to explain phenomena in their lives. there are huge, huge fan groups of Harry Potter around the world as we we know. I'm not sure that anybody actually believes it to be true. If they do, I think that's a little bit of a problem. But I'll give an example of how this can work. And this is not painting me in a very good light, but I hope that listeners will just laugh at me. But probably about 15 years ago, I dunno if it's still there, but there was a museum in the Lake District. It was either in Kendall or Keswick, but I never know which is which of those two. And it was a museum of famous cars from films and tv. So they had a Batmobile and Knight Rider, the thing from Only Fools and Horses. Just a whole load of these sorts of famous cars. And they had the car from the Harry Potter film. The, I don't know what type of car it was, but

Richard:

Is it a Ford Anglia or something like that? Yeah.

Fiona:

sort of color. And if you remember the films, that car got into a fight with a tree.

Richard:

Yes, the Whomping Willow,

Fiona:

Yeah, that's it. And I was looking at this car and I literally thought to myself, it's amazing that that car fixed itself to look so good after having the battle with the tree.

Richard:

oh.

Fiona:

So I, in my mind, I went to a magical solution. For why that car was there pristine. Having had a battle with the tree, I didn't think that people had fixed it and that it probably wasn't actually in a battle with the tree. Anyway, all of those things, no, I went to that it had magically fixed itself. When I realized that, I'd just had that thought. This is all very split. Second, of course, I realized I had had that thought. I burst out laughing. And my then husband and mother-in-law standing next to me, sort of looking at me. Why? Why is she just burst out laughing? So I tried to explain. They didn't get it. but I just use that as an example of how we can buy into the stories unconsciously. cause obviously as soon as I had any conscious thought of what I just thought.

Richard:

And if we do these things in our mind. If we can genuinely influence, even if for a split second, our beliefs with a story. We need to be careful what stories we tell ourselves. We really do. I remember somebody once describing cognitive dissonance, like you're being pulled apart and it's painful. You've been pulled in one direction, you've been pulled in another direction, and it's not comfortable. It's not nice, and you can either go one way or the other, or you can take some painkillers so you don't feel the pain. We need to be aware that we do that to tell ourselves. What am I doing here and is this causing me a problem? Am I justifying something here that is helping me, or am I justifying something that is gonna hold me back from being the person who I want to be?

Fiona:

I was thinking then of the push me, pull you in

Richard:

Doctor

Fiona:

Doolittle. that can't have been comfortable can it being that creature. But again, for a moment there I was thinking it was real.

Richard:

It makes me laugh every time I think of that, the Rex Harrison film, when he was, he was really in love with that seal. He really was into that seal. Very odd.

Fiona:

It's a very long time since I've seen that, so

Richard:

Hey, everybody have a look on YouTube for Rex Harrison's Doctor Dolittle and his seal. And the song he sings to it as he chucks it off a cliff into the water and it's seal's got its big eyes and he's singing to it. It's just a love song. It's proper odd, but it makes me giggle every time I need to cheer myself up. Not every time,'cause I've got a couple of different go-tos, but sometimes, yeah, I'm in a funk and I, you know, I'm not in a nice place and I go, oh, I need cheering up, and I just go to there, in my mind. Rex Harrison and his seal.

Fiona:

Those videos you're posting on Instagram at the moment that

Richard:

365 Days of Smiles.

Fiona:

make me smile every time. Lovely. so thank you for doing that. Yeah.

Richard:

Yes. Yeah. Do subscribe to, uh, my, uh, social media stuff. My smile a day. Every Monday I sit down and find seven for the following week through Reddit and a few other different places and find these videos. Really enjoy it. It sets me up for the week. It does. I really enjoy those little seven videos I find each week, but I have to schedule it in my diary to make the time.'cause that is important. You gotta work with some of your, um, I guess defenses.'cause there's a big part of me that, that said, oh, I'd like to do little videos like that every day. But I knew that if I didn't commit to it and call it, this is day one of 365, I'll just do it for a couple of months and then get distracted and do something else instead. So no I wanna stick at this. If I'm gonna make a commitment to this, I'm gonna put it out there to the world and go, I am committing to this. Then I got so many new followers on Threads because of it. I went, oh, look forward to these. And hundreds and hundreds of people extra started following me. I'm like, okay, you're gonna hold me accountable if I don't do this, so I'm gonna do it. And yeah, I'm glad. I am really glad I am, and we need to do that with our goals. We do know research has shown that if you put your goal out to the public, you tell your friends, you tell your family. This is my goal for this month or this year. I'm, I want to do this. The fear of letting them down means you're more likely to get off your backside and do that thing. So do that

Fiona:

Accountability's

Richard:

Mm.

Fiona:

That just made me think. Another thing. about cognitive dissonance is about sort of the attention we pay to different aspects of conversations and so on and to what factors we use to determine whether we choose A or B. And whether that could be an action. It could be a belief. So if you've got contradictory beliefs going on, so you've got a cognitive dissonance that you become aware of. Then, let's take an example. Uh, you might want to be buying a new car. And let's say you've got a value system of wanting a prestige car to show off your status, let's say they've got that. But they've also got a value of being kind to the environment and balancing where to go in that marketplace. I'm a bit stuck now because I don't really know enough about it. But, there will be cars that are real gas guzzlers and there are cars that are aren't. And then you've got maybe, um, Teslas in that equation and you've got different political views going on, particularly now at time of recording with Tesla that might contradict viewpoints. So. Who do you listen to?

Richard:

Oh,

Fiona:

And people will choose who to listen to based on their underlying cognitive dissonance, and they will hear the ones that they want to hear.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

the echo chamber sort of idea, So cognitive dissonance, thinking about what your conflicting beliefs are not jumping to the conclusion that this is wrong. It's okay. And then seeing if you need to do something about it. Thinking about who you listen to,

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

whose opinions you value. That could be individuals, could be societal. Could be political parties. I listen to those people and not those people

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

form my opinions.

Richard:

Yes, because there's an element of. hero worship, that if there's somebody that you already like, you already admire them. Because they wrote a good book, or they're attractive, there's something about'em that you'd like. Then there is a feeling that everything else about them must be good. Maybe not. Maybe they're wrong. And just because you like that aspect of them doesn't mean you have to like all aspects of them. And that's even in ourself. If we think of ourself as a good person, I'm a good person. Yeah, you're a good person. But you ignore that phone call off that friend when you didn't wanna talk to'em, didn't you? So you can't be a good person. Well, yeah you can.'cause good people need some time for themselves and they've got boundaries. It's perfectly okay to go, I haven't got time for that right now. That's okay.

Fiona:

Yeah. And we are not perfect and we're able to make mistakes and that's how it is. And that example isn't necessarily a mistake anyway. It, It's fine. You don't have to be on call 24 7 for everybody who needs you.

Richard:

Yeah, but like a friend of mine who missed a phone call off their dad many years ago and. Their dad died and he was ringing to say, something's wrong. Something's, something's wrong. Because he then rang his sister instead. My friend's aunt and my friend's aunt was the one that went round to make sure he was okay. Found that he wasn't, this isn't right, and rang 9, 9, 9. And then rang my friend. She's like, oh yeah, I've got a missed call off him. What's going on? And she held that for ages'cause that that's, he rang me first. And I ignored him. No, you didn't see it. I mean, even if she had, um, this is going back many years. It's, it's, it's okay.'cause you, you didn't know. It's not a mistake to just be human. It's fine.'cause we don't have, if we had foresight, we'd all have won the lottery, wouldn't we

Fiona:

Yeah. I mean, it's just thinking about foresight, it's impossible. I mean, it's, it's just because it screws everything up.

Richard:

Yeah.

Fiona:

world couldn't work.

Richard:

what else have we got, Fiona? Anything else you wanted to add about cognitive dissonance?

Fiona:

Yeah. I think I'd just like to emphasize that thing from Harari about it not only being inevitable, but it being necessary and a good thing.

Richard:

Hmm.

Fiona:

So don't beat yourself up

Richard:

Hmm. Fancy that you're human.

Fiona:

I want chocolate. I don't want chocolate. That's fine.

Richard:

Yeah,

Fiona:

do that.

Richard:

Yeah. absolutely. But you are human and, we have all the foibles that come with being human in a culture that both needs to cling together for safety, but also wants some solitary time to itself. We are a complicated species, and That's okay. Be complicated. Be absolutely messed up. That's okay. Be contradictory. That's okay. You're not doing anything wrong. You're not living life wrong. You're just being human and you're being your version of human as well. Warts and all. Right, we need to love them and leave them for another week. Fiona, let's, let's take ourselves away. They do. Well, we're not stopping anytime soon. Might have a break between season two and season three while we figure out, um. What we're gonna do with it. Yeah. What to talk about, whether it'll just be listener questions, probably. So do send us some, if you've got some inquiries or questions, something that's on your mind about psychology, about what it is to be human. Or if you're a therapist and you, you want to know a little bit about what it's like to be one. Do let us know. We'll answer anything that's appropriate to a degree. Don't bother asking us about homeopathy or Reiki though,'cause we'll just scratch our heads and go, wow, we dunno, more research needs to be done. And if you need anything, you can WhatsApp us, you can text us, you can email us. There's lots of ways of getting in touch via the website and the show descriptions, of course. So get in touch, you know where we are. If you need us, have a super week. See you next time.

Fiona:

Bye-bye bye.

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Fiona Biddle

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Richard Nicholls

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