Eat That Frog

In this episode Richard & Fiona discuss the challenges of procrastination and the importance of tackling daunting tasks head-on, using insights from Brian Tracy's book 'Eat That Frog'.

Along the way, they share some personal anecdotes and delve into how therapists manage their myriad responsibilities.

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Transcript

Richard: 0:09

Hello! it's another episode of the Therapy Natters podcast. A podcast where we take a peek into the world of psychotherapy and personal development to see if we can help nudge you onto a more fulfilling path, if you need one, or help you to understand the path that you're already on and why you're enjoying it so much. Hello to you! Hello Fiona, welcome to another episode.

Fiona: 0:34

Hi Richard, how are you doing?

Richard: 0:36

I'm alright, Oh, it's tax return time. So I'm a bit, ah, I've got this to do and I've got that to do, but, um, It'll be alright. It'll be alright. I will do it. It's just a pain. But apart from that, having to deal with paperwork, nobody tells you that when you become a therapist. When, oh, you're going to have to do everything. you are your financial manager. You are also your social media manager. You are in charge of everything. Oh, okay. And you also need to learn.

Fiona: 1:06

marketing's the one that most of my students and supervisees fall over because it's not a natural process for therapists. Selling themselves it doesn't tend to be.

Richard: 1:21

No, it doesn't. It's an awkward thing, isn't it? In fact, I even remember, and I'm sure any, if there are any, there are therapists that listen to this, and there are probably student therapists as well listening to this. The very first time you have to ask for the money. It's so awkward. It's like, we've just spent an hour together, or my very first client was two hours, because it was a hypnotherapy smoking cessation client, and two hours sitting with somebody and then I've got to really humbly ask for money off them. It was really awkward. I don't know how long it took me to get used to that. It was about a year, I think, before I'm like,

Fiona: 1:58

I remember that. And the other one is asking them if they want another appointment.

Richard: 2:04

Oh yeah. Do you want to see me again?

Fiona: 2:08

oh dear, what if they say no? I remember somebody I worked with as a supervisee whose trainer had told them never to ask anybody if they want to re book.

Richard: 2:20

Eh?

Fiona: 2:21

Yeah, that must be his stuff, because, I mean, that's just daft, because the clients are likely to think that we, as the therapists, don't want to see them again if you don't say

Richard: 2:33

Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. You're dealing with people that might have some anxiety issues. They might need some leading, some help to go, this is the process. Of course, you want to leave an option there that if they don't want

Fiona: 2:47

always the option, but if you've started a process, you want to continue it.

Richard: 2:55

Hmm.

Fiona: 2:56

there for. So,

Richard: 2:58

councillors will even call it contracting for a reason at the start of their client's therapy journey and go we're gonna create a contract of how things are gonna go. These are the things that we're gonna discuss. This is the type of treatment that you're going to get. And if things change, we're gonna change the contract. Sign here.

Fiona: 3:18

not just counselors, but if you think of a psychoanalytic

Richard: 3:21

yeah,

Fiona: 3:22

Psychotherapist, their contract would be X number of times per week for X years, and that's your contract. And you, you pay for those X number of sessions every week, whether you attend them or not, whether your therapist is on holiday or not, whether you are on holiday or not. So that's your contract. So, so that would just be built in. You wouldn't be saying sort of same time next week or anything like that because that's written in stone, whereas the hypnotherapy practice that you and I both obviously come from, it tends to be not such a long term process and more flexible. That's if somebody says, actually I'd like to leave it three weeks, and we go, absolutely fine, that makes sense, because sometimes it does.

Richard: 4:10

I'd encourage that If somebody's doing well, yeah, you can bring so much more content into therapy if you've had a good gap in between. If you see somebody too often and actually you're doing okay, you're likely just going to be continuing with a pleasant relationship, a therapeutic relationship, which can be healing. But you might not be getting your money's worth. But if you left it two weeks and you've got a chance to have an argument with your sister or something, you've got content to bring in.

Fiona: 4:40

a week is so short and the number of times I've had weekly clients and they come back after a week, and well, have you done those tasks that we were talking about? And they go, I just haven't had time. And have you thought about this? I just haven't had time. So they need time, and within that time, they need the time to process. So it's quite complicated, but yeah. It's not a rush.

Richard: 5:07

Yeah. and speaking of which, speaking of having to do my tax return and trying to make time for all the things that are important to you. That's part of what we've been talking about We've had a theme the last couple of episodes, haven't we? About time management and

Fiona: 5:22

and finding the ways to actually fulfil your goals. That's where we're, up to on Evolve to Thrive is actually, getting on with it.

Richard: 5:32

Like my tax return.

Fiona: 5:33

Like your tax return.

Richard: 5:35

Actually, I'm a fair way through it, so I've done the difficult bit.

Fiona: 5:40

So why did you stop part way through?

Richard: 5:43

Because now I've got to take all the time consuming stuff I've already done, which was collating all the numbers. This is what's come in, this is what's gone out. now I've got to put that Onto the

Fiona: 5:55

HMRC website.

Richard: 5:57

Yeah, I've just got to enter it all in, which is actually the easy bit, really. That's only going to take me an hour or so, but I haven't done that yet, but I've done the really difficult stuff.

Fiona: 6:07

Yeah, it's not going to take you an hour.

Richard: 6:09

No, it. probably won't.

Fiona: 6:12

If you've, I mean, it may be, certainly when I've done it, I find, oh Yeah. I hadn't got that figure and had to go back and find it, but yes, there's not that many questions.

Richard: 6:23

Yeah. no, it'll be, it'll be, I'll have it done in no time,

Fiona: 6:26

And this does lead very nicely into what we're going to talk about today, which is a book by Brian Tracy called Eat That Frog. Actually, that comes from a quote from Mark Twain. Which, it was, I'm paraphrasing because I don't know it exactly, but the quote from Mark Twain is something like, if the one thing you have to do today is eat a frog, do it first thing in the morning.

Richard: 6:52

Then everything the rest of the day tastes good.

Fiona: 6:54

So, you've done it, you got it out of the way. So, the whole idea of the book, and we're just going to cover the basics of the book, but you know, it's available, is just do it. If you've got something that's sort of hanging over you, if you imagine that you woke up in the morning and you thought, oh god I've got to eat a bloody great big frog or a big juicy toad, then if you've actually got to do it, then just do it because otherwise it's going to be hanging over you.

Richard: 7:27

Yes, and you might not realise quite what of an influence that could do. You might not be consciously thinking that you've got a project that's not complete, that might be weighing you down, that it's there in your mind, but it's there It's in the back of your mind. And we do use that phrase a lot, don't we? Oh, it's in the back of my mind, But when people say that, they don't really mean the back of their mind. They mean also in the back of their mind, but also I'm thinking about it. It's always there. Because I'm thinking about it. That's not the back of your mind. That's frontal lobe stuff. You know, you're actually thinking about it. Whereas, to me, the back of your mind, is the unconscious. And you can't, That's not in language. There are no words to that. It's all about feeling. So you will feel that there is something unpleasant coming around the corner. And that's anxiety. And until you recognise, Oh, in the back of my mind, there's my tax return, or there is this difficult conversation I've got to have with my frustrating sister or whatever it is. Oh, sorry, sisters. If any, if either of my sisters are listening to this, I'm not talking about you. I love you both. It's fine.

Fiona: 8:41

what would Freud say?,

Richard: 8:42

What would Freud say? That in the back of your mind there is the unconscious, I'm going to say Freudian slip, but that's not quite what the, well maybe that's what a Freudian slip is, but now in my mind I'm seeing an image of Freud wearing a nightie.

Fiona: 9:01

Have you seen that book called The Freudian Slip?

Richard: 9:05

Think I've seen the cover which has got a drawing of Freud in a nightie, yeah,

Fiona: 9:08

guy who wrote lots of letters to people asking for the literal things. So he wrote to Next asking for a Freudian Slip. And so there's a book that publishes his letters and the answers from these companies. And the answers from the companies are often hilarious.

Richard: 9:27

I love stuff like that

Fiona: 9:29

Exactly, it's great. It must be on my shelf somewhere. But, yes, getting back to the point. that was a little tangent. Getting back to the point. Yeah, if it's in the back of your mind, then it's not out of your mind. I mean, I've got a little pile, it's over there, little pile in the corner of documents that need sorting, and because it's in a pile and I know exactly where it is, it's not really in my mind, although it still sort of is. So in the middle of the night last night, I thought, oh, got to do that, and I wonder if that thing there, I wonder if that thing I've got to do is in the pile or if it's not in the pile. I will be getting to that pile first thing on Monday morning.

Richard: 10:12

Eat that frog.

Fiona: 10:14

But I

Richard: 10:14

First thing Monday morning.

Fiona: 10:16

Oh, maybe now that I've said this, maybe I'll eat it today. Maybe I will eat that frog today. But it doesn't feel like much of a frog. And this is another element to the theory, if you like, which is about the perception of the eating the frog. So sometimes things will seem like they're going to be big juicy toads, which is a phrase I used just before. But when you actually eat them, it's a tiny little tadpole, that you can just swallow like a grain of rice. But it can be the other way around as well sometimes, that you think things are going to be a little tadpole, and once you start on it, you find it's actually bigger. And that's what I was getting at when I was asking you about your tax return. Where is it on the size of a frog continuum?

Richard: 11:03

Well now, it's tiny, because I know that I've done all the hard work. But, the deadline isn't for ages, doesn't need to be done right now. But! It'll still be well, having said that once you submit it, you're then going to pay your tax. So maybe I'm maybe I'm scared of that. Like, oh no! They're going to now ask for the bill. That's a frog.

Fiona: 11:26

That is a frog, but that's, that is one you, again, it's probably better just to do it, isn't it?

Richard: 11:32

It's not easy for everybody to just do it, but there's a reason why Nike used that phrase. Just do it. Because they knew that's what people need to hear. And for some things, that is the answer, well just do it. There are plenty of people that might struggle with that because they might not have the motivation to do it for some reason. And it's always worth looking into why is that motivation missing? is that a neurodivergent thing? Or is it a desire thing? That, yeah, well, sure, I'll eat that frog first thing in the morning cos I really want the outcome that eating that is gonna produce. Well Just check. Do You? Do you? Is there a reason why you didn't eat the frog yesterday? Like New Year's resolutions?

Fiona: 12:20

There are so many reasons why we might not eat the frog. you've mentioned about the motivation, you could talk about fear. The fear. of eating it, the fear of having eaten it, the fear of not having eaten it. There's so, there's so many different ways of looking at procrastination. But, people will also vary. I mean, you said some people will have a problem with it. Most people, I think, will have a problem with procrastinating some things, and have no problem at all on others. So most people don't procrastinate the things that they really want to do. Like having a meal, or cleaning their teeth. But they might procrastinate, making a phone call, or, as you say, or, doing your tax return, or the, or the things that have in some way, some baggage attached to them. So for each individual, it's, really helpful to, to, look at what you do not procrastinate. As well as looking at what you do procrastinate,

Richard: 13:29

Like a lot of things, it involves getting to know yourself well. Knowing what makes you tick, so that you know.

Fiona: 13:38

What

Richard: 13:39

What is going on with you? Why am I struggling with that? Or why did I find that easy? Why does that make me feel good and that make me feel anxious? What's going on there? What does that remind me of? Thinking of, of college work, when qualifying as a therapist, the essays and things like that That there were times that having to sit down and write. In a in a formal way, rather than an informal way. Because I've been scripting notes for podcast episodes for decades, you know, I've been doing that forever. Pretty much. And I've written short stories and it's all very informal and fun. But to do something academic, immediately, mine, and I know I'm not alone in this, just goes back to back doing my A levels and struggling. And how, how awful that felt. And walking away from my A Levels, which I did, I walked away from my A Levels. Probably didn't need to when I look back now, but then my life wouldn't have gone the way that it did if I had stuck with it. So, can I have this life, please? But, yeah, I felt so stupid trying to sit down and write in an academic way rather than in an an informal, fun way. And I was so pleased when I had to then turn that into writing a book. Where there was still an element of that, but I knew myself well enough by that point, because I was 40, or 41, 42, something. 42, I think, when I wrote my book. So, I'd already got to know myself well enough to see those triggers. To know why. Well, all I've got to do is just this. But why? I mean, is it a frog? Oh yeah, it's quite a, it's quite a juicy toad, actually. I've got to write 10, 000 words today, otherwise I'm going to be late with a deadline. Whoa, okay. But why didn't you do it yesterday? Oh, because I just couldn't. Yesterday wasn't a good day to do it because I knew I'd still got today to do it. But then the extra stress of doing it all? Well, I could have done 5, 000 words yesterday and 5, 000 today. We're a very complicated species.

Fiona: 15:52

If I think back to my school days, I was somebody who'd, um, leave homework towards the end of the time. Not, you know, not sort of midnight the night before handing in, but, um, I didn't, you know, I didn't get a piece of homework, rush home and do it. Schedule things towards their hand in date. Um, and then, because I did IT at University. I discovered that doesn't work when you're writing a computer program,

Richard: 16:25

Oh,

Fiona: 16:25

because you need to

Richard: 16:26

Because of all the problems,

Fiona: 16:27

You need to test it, you need to write it, you need to test it, and in those days those processes were very slow, because it was before personal computers or anything. So it was a very slow process. So I learned at that point, this, this technique just is, is impossible.

Richard: 16:47

Right.

Fiona: 16:48

And, so then, because I had to change, I changed, and I, then I changed it, uh, completely. So when I did my, uh, first, sort of academic, I'm not going to say that because it's only about level 4 or 5, training in counselling. I thought, no, I'm going to be the one. This was, I changed my identity from the one who does it last minute ish to the one who's going to do it straight away. Oh gosh, did that feel good. It felt ever so nice to get it done, but it's a long time now since I did, well, I've done some because obviously I do some CPD and so on, but actual really sort of formal academic work. It's been a while. I don't do that enough with other things. And then there's, some things which, if you, you talk about, you know, writing 5,000 words yesterday and 10,000 today. If you're talking about an exercise programme which is something that I'm working on since I hurt my back, that I need to get my fitness back. The fact that I didn't do anything yesterday, well I can't do double today.

Richard: 17:55

Ooh Yeah,

Fiona: 17:57

So that is a different type of motivation and a different type of procrastination. So, as I'm talking here, I'm thinking, oh yes, I need to pay attention to that.

Richard: 18:12

Yeah, if somebody's training for a half marathon or a marathon, then, yeah, you can't play catch up on your training and go, Well I'll just, do extra tomorrow. That's, that's not how it works.

Fiona: 18:25

You might be able to do a little bit, but you can't do, you can't do double your training.

Richard: 18:30

No that way, injury lies. And I think that's the same with a lot of other stuff. There's only so much strength. Whether it's an emotional resilience or it's a physical strength that we can handle in any one time before we need to rest. And there's a phrase I use a lot that the brain doesn't know the difference between fact and fiction. I've been using that phrase as a hypnotherapist since I qualified because that is the reason why hypnotherapy and daydreaming and meditation and all the different phrases we might have about brain training, have the effects that it does. Because when you see somebody fall over in front of you, you go, Ooh ow, I felt that. No, you didn't. But you did, because your brain's got mirror neurons, and when you think about dropping something, you're more likely to drop it, because you primed yourself to drop it. Or, complete something. Now, you don't have to actually be doing the stressful, difficult thing for your brain to be having the effect as if you're having, you're doing that really difficult, stressful thing. So if you've got a frog to eat, you do need to eat it. Because if you don't, your brain is going to be there in the background telling you that you need to eat it. Which will have the same feeling as if you're eating it. So you're, going to be eating a frog for a month. So do you want to eat that frog for a month? Or do you want to eat it for an hour?

Fiona: 19:59

Now, tell me something, Richard. You're, an actor, aren't you? You do this

Richard: 20:06

a thespian.

Fiona: 20:08

thespian. yeah.

Richard: 20:09

Amateur Dramatics, yeah.

Fiona: 20:12

This idea about the mind doesn't know the difference between, real and imagined. What happens when somebody is acting, a really traumatic scene?

Richard: 20:23

Hmm.

Fiona: 20:25

What does the brain think about that? I've often wondered. What do you think?

Richard: 20:29

Well, I, I, I know, I've done that. I've been in, there was one play, I'm very proud of the experience. It was a play that me and some friends sat down to write. And it was called Only a Weaver. It was a wonderful little play, set in our local town of Bedworth, in Warwickshire. And it was all about the local ribbon weavers. And we got some letters from a local historian. Hello, John Burton, great guy. And he'd found these old letters in books and things that he'd put together over the years of what was going on in the 17 and 1800s, this area. Very rough, very poor. Lots of people starved to death. Lots of people emigrated to Australia. It's very, very sad. And so we acted all that out. And I had to act at a grave of a baby. And I think Billy was five or six Or something at the time. So it was easier to imagine the pain of that. But I imagine had to imagine the pain of that And I was in tears, absolutely in tears. But the director helped us with how to do that. Some of my friends didn't realise that's what he was doing. They went, why is he asking us to do this? Lie on our backs, close our eyes and listen to some music and see what feelings it conjures up. Because what jumped out at me was him playing, it was Dancing Queen. He played lots of songs. There was like the theme from Jurassic Park and there was lots of different things. And my mate says, yeah, I got married to that song, to the theme to Jurassic Park. That's how they got married. Wonderful piece of music. John Williams. Hello

Fiona: 22:04

to you.

Richard: 22:06

Well, the Dancing Queen one hit me. Because two weeks before, I'd seen those lyrics in an obituary. Because there was a 17 year old girl that died in a car accident, and she'd been a dancer. Young and free, only 17. Man! that Damn, that gets me. Now, all these years later. Because I remember the pain of that Because Billy was so little at the time that, damn. So, yeah, we tap into that feeling, and it's real. It is real. It comes from a real place. And I know that there are actors out there, I forget who it was, that said, Have you just tried acting, darling? Instead of being a method actor. I think it

Fiona: 22:46

you

Richard: 22:46

Who was it that said that? Uh, Lawrence Olivier, I think. Have you tried acting, darling? Okay. But it still has to come from a place of, I know how that would feel. And we do feel it. We do. And it drains us. So somebody who might have to go on the stage and do that, night after night, or somebody who really immerses themselves into a character for a film. film. They've got to have a lot of therapy. They the the Who was the actor that was in, um, Split? A Scottish actor, really famous, really good, James McAvoy.

Fiona: 23:24

Oh, don't know it.

Richard: 23:26

Yeah, it's it's very poorly described dissociative identity disorder with a monster.

Fiona: 23:33

Doesn't sound a lot of fun.

Richard: 23:34

No. No But he had to have a lot of therapy, because he was playing such a difficult character, because there were things that he'd need to draw upon. I'm going, oh, I need to deal with

Fiona: 23:45

This also makes me think about, um, one of the reasons why therapists need therapy and supervision is because we're taking on other people's stuff when we empathise with them.

Richard: 23:57

Yeah. And if we're not taking that on, then we're not empathising. And you can't act that.

Fiona: 24:05

But perhaps it's the same sort of thing that an actor and a therapist need, the ability to be able to put it down once they've finished that scene. Slash session.

Richard: 24:15

Yep. Yep, What fun!

Fiona: 24:20

One thing though is that I think, let's bring it back to a more positive note. Empathy. What's the difference between empathy and sympathy? I'm not going to ask you. I just, that's a rhetorical question. Sympathy, you only sympathise with negatives, don't you? Oh, my neighbour just won a million quid on the lottery. I have great sympathy for them. No, but you can empathise with good as well. You can empathise with so for actors and for therapists, we can be getting the benefit of positive emotions that we come across.

Richard: 25:00

That's true.

Fiona: 25:01

So we can, we can empathise with, a client's joy or any, any positive

Richard: 25:09

and that's the interesting thing about being a therapist, is that when your empathy skills are good, because that just happens over time, new therapists will say, how do I, how do I, how do I gain that skill? Well, you, see clients and you'll get there. Might take 5 years, might take 20 years, but you'll get very good at empathy just by experiencing it. And a client could say the most simplest of goals that to them was their frog. And it was nothing. It's nothing. It's something that a five year old could do. But if you know how hard it must have been for them to do that, The resilience that they needed to draw upon, and their history of why they would find that so difficult, when all they did is just go to the shops and buy a pint of milk. Well, it's only a pint of milk. What's the big deal? What? That was a massive toad that they just ate. That was something huge. And they've been putting it off and putting it off because it was so painful, but they did it. I could, I'd, tear up over that, with a client. Because, because I know how hard it was for them.

Fiona: 26:14

Good tears.

Richard: 26:15

Oh yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I'm not going to sit there blowing my nose.

Fiona: 26:20

No, no, but I mean, I mean, that's a positive emotion. It's not negative. Is it?

Richard: 26:26

yeah,

Fiona: 26:26

I don't know, we don't talk about positive and negative emotions. Appropriate, but we still can. It's a good thing. Yeah.

Richard: 26:34

And, and that's, that's part of being a therapist, I think. Well, it's part of being me. as a therapist. I don't think I'm

Fiona: 26:40

You share with the clients on all sides of the spectrum. If spectrums have more than two sides. Don't really know when I say that. I don't think I know what a spectrum is.

Richard: 26:52

The dark side of the rainbow. It's a very disappointing sequel to that Pink Floyd album. So, Fiona, we've had quite a tangential episode today. Which is good, because we can cover so much that can educate and inform. As is always our plan. Is there anything else that we need to go into before we finish off?

Fiona: 27:20

Um, well, I will just say that we have exercises for eating frogs on Evolve to Thrive.

Richard: 27:28

And not just their juicy thighs.

Fiona: 27:30

No, not just that bit, not in garlic butter. Um, although that's actually, you could extend the metaphor with, with that couldn't you, as to

Richard: 27:39

Flavour it.

Fiona: 27:40

more tasty. Um, but yeah, so it's, it's in there as one of the exercises, the techniques that we have for you if you choose to go down that route.

Richard: 27:52

Excellent. And if you are an Evolve to Thrive, member, then you'll have access to this episode in its full glory without I'll have edited this down for the public, but you'll have the whole thing that's, uh, that's on there. Um, along with the video as well. It's not just a podcast. On the website we've got us video. We also video record these. They're not lectures, are they? Far from it. But it's

Fiona: 28:18

get to see us, well, me with my vague makeup on, covering my black eye. Um, yes, so,

Richard: 28:28

We've never explained your black eye. Oh, your bad back.

Fiona: 28:31

no? Well, black eye's getting better after five weeks, it's still just about there, but

Richard: 28:40

You had a fall.

Fiona: 28:41

No, I didn't.

Richard: 28:42

You fell.

Fiona: 28:43

I fell. Yes, important difference. Old people have falls. I fell. I'm not old. I fell. Yes. Downstairs. Head first. I think. Well, I must have done because I landed on my face. So, not good.

Richard: 28:57

Ah, empathy skills. Turn them down, please.

Fiona: 29:01

I tried not to think about it myself. Anyway, yes.

Richard: 29:04

The bruise is gone.

Fiona: 29:06

well, it's it's under my glasses it my glasses that I don't think really difference. But,

Richard: 29:14

Ow, ow, ow, ow, Well, I'm glad you're a lot better now.

Fiona: 29:18

a lot better.

Richard: 29:20

We've just got to get your back sorted

Fiona: 29:21

Yes.

Richard: 29:22

Well, I know you've got an appointment to get that sorted. Yeah, off to the physio now. You eat that frog. Go and get the physio'd. Because that's painful, but needs must.

Fiona: 29:33

Yeah. Yep, that's good pain.

Richard: 29:34

Good pain, yes good pain. Right then. On that note, leave you all to it. Have a super week, everybody. If you need anything, look us up. You know where to find us. Links are everywhere. All over the show notes. Take care, folks! Bye for now.

Fiona: 29:53

Bye!