Therapy Natters
Therapy Natters
Overwhelm
In this weeks episode of 'Therapy Natters', Richard & Fiona are discussing various strategies for managing overwhelm, and the importance of finding what works for you without a universal guidebook.
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Hello, all you curious minds out there. It's Therapy Natters time, the podcast where two psychotherapists natter about what makes us tick, what makes us tock and occasionally go clang. I'm Richard Nicholls and alongside me is my favourite conversational accomplice, Fiona Biddle. Fiona, how's life treating you today?
Fiona:I've a nice compliment there, so I'm feeling fine and dandy, thank you. How are you?
Richard:Super, super. All is pretty good. Um, busy. Busy. Got a lot on. We've got Evolve to thrive. Oh yeah, good busy. Oh, I like being busy.
Fiona:I like being busy too. But good busy
Richard:I, do, yeah, I enjoy relaxing. I do like a good book. I do like reading and just, and chilling. And I'm quite comfortable in my own company. But I do thrive on, oh, what's next? Oh, let's do this. What's next?
Fiona:I realised after our natter last week, where we were talking about eating frogs, I realised afterwards, I quite like to have a little pile of frogs to eat. and then sitting down in one session and eating the lot. If people haven't listened to last week's, that's going to sound really, really
Richard:Actually eating frogs, yeah.
Fiona:yes, but you need to listen to last week's to understand what I'm talking about. But no, I did have that realisation. Actually, after, after we'd done that, natter, that, yeah, I, I rather like having some juicy things on a to do list.
Richard:It goes to show that there are no rules as such as to how to lead a happy and fulfilling life. You do what works for you and you can't just get the guidebook.
Fiona:Yeah, there's, there's, no guidebook
Richard:There's no
Fiona:manual. finding out for yourself what's right for you. And of course if I was going on holiday, for example, I had that pile of frogs, then that, could be a different matter. That would be something where I'd have to put them aside, put them in the fridge, ready to come home. This metaphor's getting a bit weird.
Richard:Every analogy breaks down eventually, doesn't it I remember back in 2019, I was talking to my son about this, talking to Billy about this last week actually. we were eating at the dinner table and he went, is that your jaw making that noise? And I'm like, yeah it does that sometimes, it's been doing it for a few years. And it's because back in 2019, I took on too much. I'd just started up my Patreon podcast series. So that was a lot of work every Friday. I was doing it over the weekend at the time, cause I was still seeing clients on Fridays. So I was having this podcast episode that came out on a Monday. I was doing my public episode for the first of the month. I had a full client load. I was in three different clinics. I was working in, in Leicestershire. One in Warwickshire, one in Staffordshire, and I was working online as well. I was, I was just too busy. Way too busy. And we were going to Australia, so we were going to take six weeks off work. And preparing for that was really overwhelming. It was. It was great, and I'd do it again if I had the money, but it, yeah, it was really hard because I had to get six weeks of podcast stuff prepared. Because I didn't want to be doing that while I was away. Dawn would get quite cross. That was her trip of a lifetime. She'd been saving up since she was eight year old girl to do that. So it needed to go right. It had to be right. I was holding myself very, very tightly to the point where I couldn't close my mouth. Which I know fans of mine might go, when do you ever? But I couldn't close my teeth. They couldn't, my face was just locked up. So strange. And that never really completely fixed itself. I could do with getting that looked at. I do work in a health clinic every Thursday with specialists, osteopaths, who know exactly what to do. I've got to do that, haven't I? Yes. Oh,
Fiona:have you also tried self hypnosis to see what your mind says about it? Is it perhaps? And this is just a perhaps, obviously, because I don't know. maybe it's keeping it like that to prevent you going back to that place?
Richard:good thinking, Batgirl. Yes, well time to let that go then, isn't it? If that's the case. You know what? I don't do anywhere near as much self hypnosis as I used to. And this is something that I'll say to clients. Don't wait until you're unwell before getting some sort of treatment for something. Especially hypnotherapy, that's something that can be done in the comfort of your own home to prevent you from developing problems.
Fiona:It's one of the things we discuss in Evolve to Thrive, is creating a relationship with your unconscious, subconscious, whichever you choose, mind. So that you can have conversations like that on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be too formal. May have discussed this before, but ideomotor responses, some people listening might be aware of that as a technique that hypnotherapists often use which is usually where you get a finger to twitch or do something in response to questions that are asked
Richard:It's the reason Ouija boards work.
Fiona:well yeah,
Richard:I'm sorry, there's no ghosts moving that glass. that's your
Fiona:Yeah. it's your
Richard:You might not realise it, but it's your unconscious
Fiona:Finger, do it, but I use, I don't use the finger, I use the eyes, and I get, whichever way round the client wants them to have one eye twitching, meaning yes, and the other meaning no. So, I have that now. I can just be sitting, watching the TV, and then I'll get a twitch in one or other eye. And I then take a few moments, not necessarily right then, but when it's convenient, and have a little chat with my unconscious and say. What is it you're saying yes to or no to, depending on which eye it is? And, I'll get the answer.
Richard:skills.
Fiona:It's, saying something, it's telling me something. so it's quite, it's quite a useful one.
Richard:Hmm.
Fiona:I do notice sometimes it just says yes, just quite as though everything's okay. not a terribly specific yes. But the
Richard:Oh, maybe you just, sometimes you get a twitch. Just a twitch. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Fiona:I mean, that would probably be the first question I would be asking, is I, I, does this mean something? but the no's are more specific, it's saying no to something.
Richard:it's good to understand what's going on in your emotional brain, which is what the unconscious is. It's the part of you that doesn't really have the words for stuff. It's got the feeling for it and can't tell you because it's in a different process of the brain. But you can turn it into words by listening to what's, what's, what's that feeling mean? What's really going on there?
Fiona:Feelings and pictures tends to be what I get from it. But, listeners might have guessed if they've been trying, that we're talking about overwhelm today. And, we're going to go through a document that, is part of month three, week three, is that right? Of Evolve to Thrive, and it's one of the documents that is available at that point, which is called Managing Overwhelm, because it's something that so many people get, I mean, lives are so much busier now than perhaps, generally speaking, I suppose some people have always had issues where they've been overwhelmed. If you were a mother of twelve children in 1876,
Richard:Yeah.
Fiona:Then. you would have been overwhelmed, but, there's something particular about it now, isn't there? I mean, I know when I'm trying to get my kids to be able to arrange something, it's so difficult because there's so many things that everybody's doing. But, overwhelm's a big deal. But we've divided this into sort of listed ideas helping to manage overwhelm, divided into your body, your attention and your feelings. And one of the things in the your body section is to use self hypnosis. Although there is definitely an overlap because that works on all of them, it works on your attention and your feelings. But, self hypnosis is a really great skill to develop and it's not difficult.
Richard:No, but it takes practice, but it's a nice practice. It's not like weightlifting, which hurts. And yeah, you grow your muscles and now I'm stronger and more capable than I was yesterday. With pain, because of delayed onset of muscle soreness. You don't get that when learning how to relax your mind. It's win win.
Fiona:it absolutely is. I'd just say that in terms of learning self hypnosis we do obviously use relaxation as the foundation but you don't have to be relaxed to use hypnosis.
Richard:Yeah.
Fiona:most researched areas of using hypnosis is in treatment of burns and, you know, if somebody's just arrived at the hospital with third degree burns. They're not likely to be very relaxed,
Richard:Good point.
Fiona:but hypnosis can be hugely successful for that. So,
Richard:I thought you were going to say, one of the biggest researched area, I thought you were going to say sports.
Fiona:oh, that, yes, that too. That's another
Richard:one. Which, again, you're primed. Whether it's boxing or even golf. But running, athletics, gymnastics, I know there's a lot of mental relaxation that goes with it, but their body is still not relaxed. They're standing up and they're looking up at the rings or the bars or whatever or they're on the starting blocks and they're ready to go and they're in the zone. And that's what hypnosis is, it's being in the zone. Yeah, we've been using that phrase for years, haven't we?
Fiona:One of the, sport papers that I remember reading was a guy called John Pate, who I met in an airport once, just bizarrely. Anyway, he wrote a paper about, or did a study on, hypnosis and basketball. And the effect on getting getting that ball through that old hoop thing.
Richard:Did you write an article about that somewhere?
Fiona:I wrote an article about the article.
Richard:Yeah, I think I've read that somewhere,
Fiona:Yeah, I've quoted it somewhere but I can't remember I've quoted it, But I have quoted it.
Richard:Some book or other. yeah, using your imagination before you take the shot to imagine where you want the ball to go. Why would you not imagine where you want things to go before you then take action to make them happen? If you do the opposite and imagine where you want something to not go, well guess where it's going to go? Whether that's in life, where you want your life to go, or whether you want the golf ball or the basketball to go.
Fiona:Absolutely. So, other things on The your body category for managing overwhelm. Breathing exercises. You're hot on breathing exercises, aren't you, Richard?
Richard:Well I'm quite passionate and enthusiastic about breathing exercises, yeah. I really have found them useful for so many clients and that people, I think they, um, don't take it seriously. Because they think, oh, breathing exercises, yeah, take a deep breath. I've heard people say that. I'm anxious and overwhelmed, I'll just take a deep breath. I've heard that before. Yeah, but do you? Do you actually incorporate those breathing practices into your day? They go, Nah, it doesn't work for me. Well, how long did you try it for? Oh, I did it two or three times. I still carried on panicking. Oh, you need to do it more than two or three times. And also, not when you're panicking. You also need to do it when you're not panicking, you're not overwhelmed.
Fiona:A bit like the self hypnosis in that if you learn how to do it properly, you can then just do it when that's required.
Richard:Mm-hmm.
Fiona:Many of you might well already know about this, but if you go onto YouTube and search for Hypnosis, you can find videos for all sorts of things. Now, I mean, most of the time when people are doing hypnosis, they've got their eyes closed. So, the fact that it's a video with nice, lovely pictures doesn't really matter all that much. So, you can use them as audios. but there's a lot out there. Some of them for sleep particularly. I've found that personally very useful. to just listen to somebody else, let their voice guide you. As you know, Richard, I use your one for Bruxism myself.
Richard:Yes. That's on YouTube. Yeah.
Fiona:I find that I've, I wake up in the morning and I've ground my teeth. so, the next night, I put you on, and it resolves it.
Richard:I'm sure your dentist will be very pleased. As are you to not grind your teeth.
Fiona:my dentist he didn't say a lot when I mentioned this last time I was there, but not saying a lot was better than sort of saying Oh, no, there's something wrong with that tooth. You need to take it out
Richard:Yeah.
Fiona:There's nothing wrong with that tooth. It's Bruxism and Richard solves it for me
Richard:My pleasure.
Fiona:so yes lots of online YouTube hypnosis videos and the other one in the body is exercise. Obviously, I mean, I think it's fairly well known that adrenaline, which is part of the process of overwhelm, is designed to help you to, fight or flee. It's more complicated than that, but that's not for now.
Richard:There's a few Fs.
Fiona:yes, there are, there are others. But, if you've got adrenaline built up in your body, then go for a walk.
Richard:Yeah. Use your body. Yeah.
Fiona:the body, and not only does going for a walk get rid of the adrenaline, but it gives you time and space to think things through.
Richard:If possible, and I know we spoke about this before, not just with Ludwig when he came on, but it's just well known, I think, that doing things in nature can be helpful. But actually, although there is a major benefit in going for exercise and walking in nature, even walking along a road will help. It's not as good, the effects aren't quite the same, but there is still a benefit, even if people are overthinking as they do it. That was the interesting study that I saw. That even if when you go for that walk, you're thinking about some of the problems that you've got in life, because you're moving, whether it's to do with the arms or just the movement, your mood improves when you're back home. Even if you were doing all the overthinking and worrying while you were out there. And that's what surprised a lot the researchers because, well, you put somebody in a room and tell them to worry, the mood goes down.
Fiona:To me it seems to be a combination of the, the getting rid of the adrenaline, the time and the space that you've given to yourself, and the rhythmical, bilateral nature of the walking, do, do, do, do, do, do, that, it's that combination.
Richard:Bilateral is going to help. For a lot of people who don't know why bilateral stuff helps and what that means Bilateral means in this case, anyway, you're activating two sides of the brain one one Step, the next step, with the other side of the brain. And that does something with our memories. That does something that consolidates things. That's why EMDR is used in trauma. And EMDR, which is about eye movement, is really about bilateral stimulation, because we find pretty much the same
Fiona:yeah, EMDR, the EM is eye movement, but you can do it with tapping. So one of the ways to do it is tapping like that, or on your legs or whatever on, um, you can have, clickers.
Richard:get these in machines. yeah.
Fiona:As a therapist you can have a machine which the client holds in their hands and it clicks or does some sort of
Richard:Yeah. some sort vibration. It taps the hand. Yeah.
Fiona:and you can do it with hearing as well, so you can have a noise in either ear. So, it's the bilateral, it doesn't have to be the eyes.
Richard:Yeah. So walking is perfect for that. Swinging the arms. Yeah.
Fiona:is just great on all fronts, if you can do it.
Richard:It's not going to cure depression. Going for a walk. But.
Fiona:can, it can contribute to, I mean, that is something that's, for quite a few years now, GPs have been prescribing. walking or exercise, you know, generally for mental health. We actually have a document on that in Evolve to Thrive as well. But, okay, so, then the next section is about your attention focusing differently. So, if you're overwhelmed, one of the things you can do is just do something practical. Clean something, fix something, tidy up. Those sorts of things can make that little bit of different. Change your environment. Go outside if you're inside, go inside if you're outside. Go somewhere different in the house. Go somewhere new. If you're feeling really overwhelmed with writing an essay, for example, move to a different place in the house. Go to the library. Just do it somewhere different. All of these things are little, obviously, and none of these are going to be THE solution, but they all can help a little bit. So reading a book, watching TV, scrolling through social media, ha ha.
Richard:Yeah. Yeah.
Fiona:Yeah. a little bit. Nice bits, fun bits, not the nasty stuff.
Richard:Yeah. Pick and choose who you follow.
Fiona:Yeah, I mean, there are some now that I think are just so toxic that it's pretty much impossible, but you can do a little bit, I mean, going back to YouTube, you can just watch a few shorts on YouTube, but we're not encouraging people to do that for hours on end, but for ten minutes or something,
Richard:Yeah. Yeah.
Fiona:distract somewhat. you have a long bath or a shower, pamper yourself a bit. And of course you can try mindfulness meditation. Which is almost designed for managing overwhelm, isn't it? I would say Would they say that?
Richard:A lot of people do ask what is the difference between hypnosis and mindfulness and it is difficult to describe differences other than one is more formal. Hypnosis is quite formal, I'm going to do something. But then so can mindfulness be very formal. But it can also be very informal. Taking a shower can be very mindful. You're focusing on the shower, you're focusing on the water, the smell of the soap or the shampoo if you use it. For listeners who don't know, I am bald as a coot.
Fiona:these differences are a bit of a problem in that both can be formal and both can be informal and both can
Richard:Yes. Maybe they're the same. And it's just language, it's just words that people use because they don't like the word hypnosis, so they call it mindfulness instead.
Fiona:I remember somebody I used to work with who said that the difference is that when somebody is doing mindfulness, they're sitting up straight in their chair. when they're doing hypnosis, they slump. Well,
Richard:Nah.
Fiona:yeah, and, so, um, there's a book by Michael Yapko, called I'm looking at my shelf to see if I can see it there, but I'm pretty sure it's called Mindfulness and Hypnosis. Or, very similar to that. Where he does compare and contrast, and pretty much comes to the conclusion that there's not an awful lot of difference.
Richard:Oh, why would there be any difference? Let's be honest.
Fiona:I've always said that hypnosis is the same, state that you get into if you're doing relaxation at the end of a
Richard:Yoga.
Fiona:yoga session or childbirth classes without being specifically hypnosis. Or, know, everybody says about the highway hypnosis when you're driving a car and you're in that zone. I personally don't really see the need to separate them out, but I know obviously an awful lot of people do like to specifically have a mindfulness practice and that they do that for a certain amount of time a day and that's great if that's what you want to do. Reminds me of somebody I know who's got a young child, and so he gets up at 5 in the morning to do his mindfulness and yoga before the baby wakes up.
Richard:That's good.
Fiona:That's great. I would take the chance to sleep personally
Richard:Do you like raisins?
Fiona:Yes,
Richard:I like raisins. I think I like raisins. I've always thought I like raisins. Until, it was a fair few years ago now, and bless him, rest in peace, Ron Eslinger. He came to do a presentation at one of our conferences
Fiona:lovely lovely chap
Richard:He was! He absolutely was. And he died earlier on in the year, which was a little sad. But he was in his 90s, you know, it's easy to say, oh he had a good innings. But it's always sad to see somebody that you care about, who's sweet and kind, and they shuffle off this mortal coil. But he was doing some presentations on mindfulness and gave everybody in the room a little box of raisins. Just to take one raisin and put it in your mouth. We had to feel it in our fingers first. It was to get us into our senses.
Fiona:you look at it, you feel it, you smell it. Listen to it.
Richard:Oh yeah, because it crinkles. Yeah, Yeah,
Fiona:listen to the raisin.
Richard:Yeah. And then once you've dirtied it with your fingers, you then put it on your tongue. Maybe that's the reason why I went, oh, after spending ages with this raisin in my mouth, because you normally just chew it and swallow it, don't you? Just one raisin in there. I'm like, Yeah. This is actually quite bitter. This isn't as sweet as I thought it was. Normally I'm shoving loads of sultanas and raisins. Nom, nom, nom, nom. Just that one, I'm like, hmm. These aren't that nice. Still eat them.
Fiona:I remember doing that exercise one time when Shaun was one of the, we were all students, it was the same person who said about the slumping bit, and Shaun said, don't like raisins, don't like raisins, I'm not doing it, I don't like raisins, so, we got him a marshmallow. So he did it with a marshmallow. That's not easy to keep in your mouth for the length of time that you need to do the exercise.
Richard:that's funny. You could have used that as an exercise in learning to like raisins. I did that with bananas once. I used to hate bananas. Absolutely, just the thought of it, the smell of a banana, oh! And then I had to do a play where the character has to eat about three bananas in this play. And so I had to learn to like bananas. And so I did, but I had to have one every single day. I started with ones that didn't taste of much, so they were quite, quite green, quite under ripe, really. And had one every single day. Every single day. Within, uh, I think it was about a month? I was working my way up, and each week there'd be slightly more ripe that I'd eat. But by the end of the month, I'm like, ooh, yummy, it's banana time! Yum yum yum yum yum. And, now I, in fact, I had one for breakfast this morning! I had a banana for breakfast!
Fiona:Yes I've got a banana in the kitchen, I might have it for lunch
Richard:We all will now, because you've all been given the suggestion to eat bananas. You do like bananas. bananas. are fine.
Fiona:What was the last category?
Richard:Feelings.
Fiona:Your feelings. Speak to someone. I think this is a very, common thing if people are feeling overwhelmed. I mean, we hear it with clients, don't we? That it's bottled up, it's kept inside. They don't let it out because somehow they shouldn't be feeling this or they mustn't burden other people, all these sort of normal things. But speaking to someone is obviously a really good thing when you Just sort of say it out, out loud like that.
Richard:A lot of people don't realise the benefits to the other person as well. And there has been studies into this. It's not hard to do. There's a lot of PhD students that have replicated this because it's quite a cheap and easy bit of research to do. Somebody asking for help, coming to you and saying help with something, anything, whether it's, can you help me with this, these thoughts I'm having? And can you, can you help me get this out of me? Just, I need somebody to talk to. Or whether it's, can you help me with putting up this shelf, you know, it's, it's anything. There is a psychological benefit to the person being asked. It makes them feel good to be asked. And most people want to help, want to listen. There's this myth that, you know, a trouble shared is a trouble halved. Well, yeah, it might be halved to you, but you haven't, you haven't given it to them. You haven't given them your problem. That's my problem now, is it? That's not how it works. It's really not.
Fiona:people, do, like to help. I remember Michael McIntyre years ago doing a skit about, um, being asked the time. Or asked for directions. And it was, oh, I was the valuable one. I was the one who was asked the time. And I remember when I lived in London, there were several occasions when I was asked for directions, and I sent people in completely the wrong direction. So I, well, it wasn't intentional. It really wasn't intentional. But, when you're asked something, I mean I regularly have to ask people for help in the supermarket when I want the orange juice, which is always on the top shelf. And, I have to, I have to ask for help. so far,everybody's seemed perfectly happy to help. I make a
Richard:You can help somebody get stuff off the bottom shelf.
Fiona:I've, I haven't actually done that, but I, I've, I've thought about it. I, I tend to say to somebody, you know, can I borrow your height? Yes. And I say,
Richard:Cute.
Fiona:I, I regularly have to loiter around these places to wait for a tall person to come by like it. No. So people do like being asked for help and offloading, some of your overwhelm to somebody else. As long as that person is going to be empathic, you don't really want to be offloading to somebody who says, pull yourself together. Do you think you've got it bad? Just imagine what it would be like to be me. No, so you need to be choosing your person carefully. And of course therapists are ideal person, sort of almost what we're, what we're there for. Well, not only, but one of the things is to take that load from somebody.
Richard:Yeah.
Fiona:Without self interest.
Richard:But you can journal, you can write letters, you write emails. I often encourage clients to create a separate email account if they use Gmail or something because it's free and just email themselves whenever they want to. They can delete it out of their sent items then and it's gone so you know, no curious eyes if they're doing a search later on, a couple of years later doing a search on for their own emails and up, up that pops because it's private obviously. But only you know the password to the new account you've just created. You go and check it a year later and go, look how far I've come. That can be quite good.
Fiona:you can write letters. You can write actual physical letters. But this is not about sending them. It's about writing them. You can write to your younger self, your older self, your current self. You can write to anybody you know, anybody you don't know. You can write to, a higher being if you believe in such a thing, or even if you don't believe in such a thing, you can always write to them anyway. you can do anything. You can write in any way, shape or form and get it, get it out, onto something else. And then you can keep those. You could make a book out of it at some point if you wanted to, but. But more likely, you want to tear it up or even burn it.
Richard:Yeah it's a nice metaphor as well.
Fiona:Be careful if you're burning it but
Richard:Yeah, caveat, we would not be held responsibly if you set fire to your kitchen.
Fiona:barbecues are quite good for that. but even, I remember one time when I was on holiday and I got a phone call from somebody and I really didn't want that phone call and it was really bugging me. I just wrote that person's name on a piece of paper put it out on the balcony. Now, it was cold weather, and the balcony was not a nice place to be. Doesn't sound very good, but that's how it was. So I just put this piece of paper out there, and it just sat out there. But because the window was in between, that was enough. It was gone.
Richard:That's all it took.
Fiona:That's all it took.
Richard:Because you understood the meaning behind that action, which was
Fiona:separated myself from them and out it went.
Richard:Of course you can do that in your imagination as well. You don't have to be doing something for real. You can separate yourself from anything that's overwhelming you or troubling you. If you've had an argument with somebody at work the day before and you can't get it out of your mind and you need to, I guess, dissociate yourself from it,
Fiona:One way I've done that in the past for myself and clients is, to, in your imagination, put that situation, or write about that situation, but in some way, whatever it is, put it into a ballot box,
Richard:Hmm, that works.
Fiona:ballot boxes are very secure, because you can't break into a ballot box easily, so you put it into a ballot box, you seal the opening and then you ahave to go back to Superman 2.
Richard:Okay.
Fiona:if you haven't seen Superman 2, this isn't going to work. The Eiffel Tower. In Superman 2 there was a bomb in the Eiffel Tower. So
Richard:Yes.
Fiona:you put, you put your ballot box at the top of the Eiffel Tower and you borrow Superman. He's, he's always available for these sorts of things, no problem. And Superman then comes and zooms up the Eiffel Tower and takes your ballot box out into space.
Richard:That's good, and it doesn't explode. Well, you can do but then you might release those three nutters.
Fiona:But they've already been released, so
Richard:Oh, that's alright then, yeah, they're alright. General Zod.
Fiona:so it can then be floating around in space forever, or you can blow it up, whichever you choose. There's lots of different ways of doing it. I think the overarching conclusion that I come to about this is that there are ways to do it. You don't have to just sit with your overwhelm. Or run around like a hamster in a cage with your overwhelm.
Richard:Fiona. We are in dangerous ground here because we could be overrunning if we're not careful here. Yeah, we need to wrap up. Hey, what are we doing next week?
Fiona:Oh, don't know
Richard:I've put you on the spot now, haven't I What's on the schedule for next week?
Fiona:Ooh! developing a beneficial habit.
Richard:Okay.
Fiona:next week.
Richard:Alright, I'm up for that. We were talking a little bit about that earlier, weren't we? Alright. Well, let's talk about that next week. Boys, girls and everybody in between, have a super duper week and I'll talk to you next time. Have a good one. Bye for now.
Fiona:Bye!
