Wonder-Full

In this week’s episode of Therapy Natters, Richard & Fiona dive into the intriguing concept of wonder. What it means, why it matters, and how it ties into our search for meaning in life.

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Hello there! It's podcast time with Richard and Fiona. It's the Therapy Natters podcast. Half an hour or so of hopefully optimistic rambling that can help you to see yourself and the world through maybe a healthier lens than you used to. Good day to you, Fiona. How are you today?

Fiona: 0:31

Hi, I'm absolutely spiffing, thank you. How are you?

Richard: 0:34

I'm fantastic. That's a lovely bright red top you've got on.

Fiona: 0:37

It's a dress,

Richard: 0:39

It's a dress.

Fiona: 0:40

tell that,

Richard: 0:40

No, I can only see the top half

Fiona: 0:42

but I actually have a dress on. I'm not wearing pyjamas today.

Richard: 0:46

Do you sometimes record these wearing pyjamas?

Fiona: 0:49

Yes, doesn't everybody?

Richard: 0:51

No, I don't think they do.

Fiona: 0:53

oh,

Richard: 0:54

All those people who work from home still in their pyjama bottoms.

Fiona: 0:57

I don't think that's unusual.

Richard: 0:59

It's not, is it? Of course. Just cos I, I mean, I don't have, I do have some pyjamas. I have two pairs of pyjamas, both bought by the same aunt. Obviously because she was thinking, I don't know what to get Richard for Christmas. I'll get him some pyjamas, and then she must have thought the same thing a year or so later. So I've now got two pairs of pyjamas and, I look forward to wearing them, but also at the same time I won't look forward to it because I think the only reason I'm probably going to wear them is because I've gone into hospital.

Fiona: 1:28

There's different sorts of pyjamas, aren't there? The sorts of pyjamas I'm talking about are the ones that you wear around the house. Lounging pyjamas, not bed pyjamas.

Richard: 1:38

which is what pyjamas are. Pyjamas aren't for wearing in bed. It's an Indian or hindi word, isn't it? It's

Fiona: 1:45

I think it's Hindi, but I wasn't sure that it was for lounging.

Richard: 1:48

Yeah, it's wandering, well it's just clothes, it's just, it's just clothes. It's just a particular style of clothes that's thin lightweight material and you'd walk around the streets in pyjamas in a very, very hot country. Of course you would.

Fiona: 2:02

I did somebody in Sainsbury's in pyjamas the other day.

Richard: 2:05

Of course you did.

Fiona: 2:07

Course I did.

Richard: 2:09

Did they also have a dressing gown on?

Fiona: 2:10

No.

Richard: 2:11

I've seen people in slippers in Aldi.

Fiona: 2:14

Can't think what I just noticed. Pajama bottoms. I can't remember the rest. I wasn't that interested to process it. I just thought, those are pajamas.

Richard: 2:23

One of the interesting things about being a therapist, and because I've been one for so long now, I seem to have put a lot of judgement to one side. If I see somebody in the supermarket wearing pyjamas and a dressing gown, my initial thoughts aren't what a lot of people's are. A lot of people like that feeling of power, of having some sort of superiority over somebody. So they want to look down on others. And I guess I probably no probably about it. Like everybody, I did have that trait, because I took that to supervision back in the early 2000s with you. You probably wouldn't remembe

Fiona: 3:00

I don't.

Richard: 3:02

But it was because I was walking past a McDonald's and there was a woman standing outside having a cigarette, talking to her baby. She had a pram and a cigarette outside McDonald's, and I felt an emotion about it. I didn't like the idea that she was smoking next to her baby. I did feel judgemental and then felt guilty about being judgemental And so I took it to supervision with you about how, if that woman had been a client in front of me wanting to stop smoking, I'd think very, very differently. I can't remember what your advice was. I think it was pretty much, don't worry, Richard, everybody can be judgemental from time to time. It doesn't mean you're a bad person.

Fiona: 3:37

That sounds like the sort of thing I'd say, and I think the thing is to, it's when we notice that we're doing it and then move away from it. That's the key, because I think, yes, some people are generally more judgmental than other people, but it is a human tendency. to judge people, it just goes with the territory.

Richard: 3:58

And that's an annoying thing because people will come to therapy and they'll have this fear of judgement Unfortunately, we can't lie to them and say, it's all in your imagination, because it's true, people are judgemental people will judge. But the thing is, it's the meaning behind it. Whether that is a genuine reflection on you and whether that matters. If a complete stranger in the street who doesn't know me makes a mistake and shouts abuse, it doesn't mean anything because that person isn't important to me.

Fiona: 4:35

And it's about them, not about you. I use the phrase quite often that nobody has the right to judge you, but they will anyway.

Richard: 4:45

Because our brains are always doing stuff like that.

Fiona: 4:49

just hard wired to do so, you know, the phrase, you know, first, impressions count and all of that stuff. Of course, that's what we do. We're going to do that. It's about safety really. It's assessing where we are and is this okay? So it's natural.

Richard: 5:08

And accepting that isn't easy, but you can't accept it unless you consider it. Unless you really think about it. Unless you wonder about what's going on for you and your world and how you fit in with it. And really think about it. Meditate on it. Ponder on it. You have a little phrase that you use sometimes. Have a little look.

Fiona: 5:30

Yes, I didn't notice I said that until you pointed that out, but yeah, have a little look and there can be an element of choosing what you focus on. So, thinking about the person in the supermarket, I didn't feel any need to wonder why she was wearing pyjamas. So, I let that go. There's other things I'd rather wonder about.

Richard: 5:54

And we'd like to talk about that today. That is, the topic of today's episode is about wonder. and what that means, and the different types of wondering.

Fiona: 6:06

it's a wonderful word.

Richard: 6:08

It is a wonderful word,

Fiona: 6:09

And this does tie in, of course, this ties into month one, week four of Evolve to Thrive, which has an overarching title of meaning. And wonder, in all its senses, is tied into meaning. Looking for and finding meaning in life can be very much tied to what we find wonderful, what we wonder about, so the verb and the noun. And adjective. Well, the adjective is wonderful,

Richard: 6:45

Yeah, yeah.

Fiona: 6:46

the noun is wonder, and the verb is wonder.

Richard: 6:49

And the English language is quite poetic, really. I don't think they'd be very good poetry in Esperanto. Very, very thin dictionary. Not very many words. It was created just to make it really easy to learn it. And it's not complicated. Not that I ever did anyway. But then who did? Did anybody even bother?

Fiona: 7:09

Didn't really take off, did it? It

Richard: 7:11

No. Nice idea

Fiona: 7:12

nice idea, yes,

Richard: 7:14

But we do need well, do we need it? I feel that we need a lot of poetry in our language so that we can then use those words And find our meaning in it, because our meaning is going to be very different to somebody else's.

Fiona: 7:32

I remember a Danish colleague, hypnotherapist, saying that he liked to do hypnosis in English because the language is so much richer. That's all I, I don't know anything else about the Danish language.

Richard: 7:48

Who was that?

Fiona: 7:49

Tonny.

Richard: 7:50

It's his birthday today?

Fiona: 7:51

Oh, Is it

Richard: 7:52

Yes!

Fiona: 7:53

happy birthday, Tonny.

Richard: 7:54

Well, at current time of recording

Fiona: 7:56

I must send him a message. and also, since I've had Ukrainians living with me, I have wondered a lot more about the English language, because the number of times they say something, and I go, well that really doesn't sound right, but I wonder why? And also wondering about various constructs that we have in our language. The other day, Alla said to me, they've taken the children away. And I thought, what? What? They've taken the children away? And it was literally that the other bit of the family had gone on a day trip with the children. But I mean, how do you say to somebody? Well, I didn't, I didn't say anything. But the complexities that we have in English are endlessly fascinating.

Richard: 8:51

Lots of our experiences will have a completely different meaning to us than to the people that we're with. To the point where sometimes we can even feel quite Neglected, Assaulted, Affronted, Offended, Abused even. And the other person didn't mean any of that. But we still felt that, because that was real to us. For whatever reason. In that moment. And I do think it's worth people having a little wonder about how they feel that they fit in in the world. And whether they feel they don't, I guess, and why they might feel that they don't.

Fiona: 9:35

Yes, the, the general question, I wonder who I am, which of course is month one of Evolve to Thrive is the who am I, which is full of wondering. And therefore, also, wondering about the nature of the world that we are all a part of, and wondering what it's all about. What is the meaning of life?

Richard: 9:58

Whoa!

Fiona: 10:01

Yeah, well, that is fully discussed in this week, but it's too much to go into right now, but we sort of need to get to grips with it, even if it's getting to grips with the not having an answer to it.

Richard: 10:14

Accepting that the universe is very complicated and complex and humans and society is complicated and complex and so is our neurology, our brain, our body, our life, our world, our ecosystem. It's all very complicated and we might not fully understand it. We might just have to Accept that and sit back and enjoy it in a way that is safe, in a way that gets our needs met. And everybody's got different needs. They might all have an overarching theme of safety in one way, shape, or form, or contentment, But everybody's going to get that met in different ways. To read a book that says, here is the secret to a happy life. when I was asked to write a book about that, I, I had to tell them that that's not what this book is going to be about. It will have to be about how to find it for yourself. Because mine's going to be different to yours. Very different. Certainly different to my wife's because her introversion level is different to mine. I'm more extroverted, she's more introverted. We can't have the same shared experience all the time and feel the same way. And I'd see, I see a lot of problems in relationships with people that come into therapy and they don't know how to talk to their partner. We need to learn how to, because that's really important if you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody.

Fiona: 11:46

Just referring to right at the beginning of our conversation before, obviously, before we started recording today, I I mentioned to you, Richard, about tone in messages that I send to you,

Richard: 11:59

Yes.

Fiona: 12:00

and that comes from a wondering if what I say is being taken in the way that I intended it to be taken. So that's a useful thing to, to wonder about. And going back to the judgment as well it's wondering how I'm perceived.

Richard: 12:20

Mm.

Fiona: 12:21

And if you do that wondering, then you have choices. The choices open up.

Richard: 12:26

Yes.

Fiona: 12:27

and then we have the wonder of the world that we live in.

Richard: 12:32

Mm.

Fiona: 12:32

For those who don't know, there's a form of therapy called ecotherapy, which is about getting out there in nature and experiencing that and the learnings that can come from it and just the general experience and how that can energize and support the person. And if you think about it, that wonder, when I say that, I think of forests and walking in the woods and, you know, down on a beach or something like that. And if you think about the world, there's huge, huge amounts of the world. that are like that, that have the most amazing scenery and mountains and lakes and seas and rivers and all sorts of things, But there's also, I sort of struggle to find anywhere that doesn't have wonder in it. So if you're in the middle of London, you can look around and think of the wonder of all these buildings that were built, you know, street after street after street of mansion blocks that people built and you go to see an ancient civilization and, you know, just think of the Pantheon in Rome that's wonderful, I'm full of wonder at the fact that people actually made that and Gosh, if you go to Egypt, I mean, it's just crazy the things that they created. And then you wonder about their belief systems and the passion and the strength of belief that was there. Did they really believe? Well, they did. But I wonder what led them to believe that if you mummify somebody and put them in a tomb with all their ushabtis and their bread and things, that they would have another life and be able to use it. What And Then, of course, you could take it from the large stuff of, you know, the lakes, oceans and seas, and take it down to microscopic things. Look at little insects and a blade of grass and just ordinary everyday things, like I saw a robin having a bath in a plant pot in my garden that's got no plant in it. It was just full of rain, and I just stood there and just watched it. Having a bath, and then a leaf fell from the tree, and there's just, these are really, really simple things, but you can find wonder in anything if you stop. And look.

Richard: 15:00

On my other podcast project, I was talking about the concept of awe, things that are awesome last, well, it was, October and I made a little social media clip, put it on TikTok, follow me on TikTok if you like, feel free. And somebody commented, cause I'd said that the psychological, you know, trying to cram something down into a 60 second snippet isn't easy. But I, uh, mentioned that the concept of awe is about experiencing something that's so big your mind can't comprehend how it can exist. And somebody, a character called Greg, hello Greg, said, being in awe of something doesn't mean that it's big. And they're right, but it depends what we mean by vast or big. What does that mean? How much space does something take up? Because the example I was thinking of was, well, Rosa Parks was the example I was thinking of. How big was she? Well, she was five foot two. Yeah, but how big was what she achieved? How big was anybody involved in changing culture? Changing perceptions? Challenging problems? Most people are under six foot.

Fiona: 16:16

size doesn't matter, Richard.

Richard: 16:19

Are you saying it's what you do with it that counts?

Fiona: 16:21

I, I, I am. Tiger Roll, one of uh, Tiger Roll, one of the most successful racehorses of recent years, was little.

Richard: 16:31

Really

Fiona: 16:32

Simone Biles is only four foot seven.

Richard: 16:36

No!

Fiona: 16:36

Yep she's teeny tiny.

Richard: 16:39

I didn't know that. Well, why would I? That's a weird thing to Google. I mean, I usually Google people that are the same sort of height as me because I'm quite

Fiona: 16:48

We've discussed, we must not talk about our heights again, because we keep doing this. Not that we are preoccupied, but it fits with this topic about Awe. Awe is about, it's something about perception of size in a way, but it's not about size. So you can be in awe of an ant.

Richard: 17:10

Oh, yeS

Fiona: 17:11

If you watch ants working, I mean, why wouldn't you be in awe of that? It's quite absolutely amazing to watch. It's wonderful.

Richard: 17:19

You can be in awe of the fruit fly and the eye of the fruit fly. You can also be in awe of the geneticist that was able to play with the gene coding that turned the eye green, or something like that, so that they could understand more about genetics. Because fruit flies have lots of babies very quickly, so they do a lot of studies on fruit flies. Apparently, the smaller something is, the more ethical it is to be able to do weird things to them. Couldn't do it to a human, wouldn't even do it to a sheep. You'd do it to a fruit fly, because they don't count. Really? It's a grey area there, isn't it? But hey, we learn all about genetics because of it. Thank you, fruit flies.

Fiona: 17:57

What's that religion where they sweep the ground in front of them when they walk along? Oh, I've got an idea in my head, but I'm not exactly sure what it is, so we'd better leave that. But, even then, they're not going to be taking into consideration the bacteria.

Richard: 18:12

Mmm. Every time you wash your hands, you're killing something.

Fiona: 18:16

Presumably they wash their hands, and even if they don't, then holding the Broom, they're going to be killing some bacteria. So I think, I think it's quite reasonable to draw a line at some point.

Richard: 18:27

Agreed.

Fiona: 18:27

So, awe which, interestingly started off as a, a word meaning, horrifying or terrifying. So awful full of awe actually refers to that old meaning of the word awe. that bit's changed, but the awful hasn't changed. And awesome changed, but awful didn't.

Richard: 18:50

Strange,

Fiona: 18:51

you go, you come back to being, to wondering about language.

Richard: 18:55

Yes. And all of the meaning that comes from it. I mean, there are psychological benefits experiencing something that's awesome, something that's awe inspiring, and there is a nice feeling that comes from it that can make you laugh and make you cry and move you. But natural things do seem to have a greater impact. There was a study done at, where was the university? Berkeley I think it was Berkeley Because they've got some trees that they imported from Australia, but because there's nothing that eats the leaves, they just kept on growing. So they're really awesome trees, so they just grow and grow and grow. And they've got some buildings that are the same sort of height. So they did a study that just asked people to meet in a particular place and look up, basically, and spend a few moments wondering about what's going on around them. It wasn't the height. There was still some element of, oh, life is sweet, this is awesome, at a building, but it was nothing like it was for the trees. Even though the building was man made, but it's just a university building, it's nothing special, but the tree, the huge tree, that created an extra feeling of awe. in somebody that made them feel connected because it's it that was that's the reason i think sometimes why a lot of things boost our mental health it connects us because we're having a shared experience with everybody on the planet to a degree because we've all got the ability to look up at a tree or look into the distance, the stars or stand on a hill and look over a city, we've got a shared experience and that feeling of connectedness can help us to fit in, can create that sense of belonging if we need it.

Fiona: 20:44

depending on your viewpoint in terms of religion and evolution and creationism, et cetera, it can help you to feel part of it in different ways, But I think just going back to your it's somehow more awe inspiring to see trees than buildings that will be a personal thing. There will be and and I I would struggle to think that It would be anybody who wasn't awe inspired by looking at the pyramids. Not that I've seen them yet, but I will do. but, you know, I've seen plenty of awe inspiring, buildings, and I've seen plenty of awe inspiring natural things. but personal, personal differences, but you know, even going back to the Pantheon, I remember when I was there with, the kids and saying, look at that brick there. Just look at that brick there. Which brick? It doesn't matter. Just look at that one. Any one, any one. Somebody put that there.

Richard: 21:35

Hmm,

Fiona: 21:36

And to me, that's the same sort of thing. That's a connection that somebody from 2000 years ago, whatever it was, a real living human being put that there. And that was somebody who had been probably asleep the night before, had had something to eat and was going to go home to family and was going to go to the games and you know, somebody who had a real life then and that's a connection because they're the same.

Richard: 22:07

yeah.

Fiona: 22:08

So with both those scenarios that, you raised about the trees and the connection to other people and the recognition of being part of something in terms of history and shared humanity, all of that helps an individual recognize their own individualism and their own place in the world and their right to be. Because I have got as much right to be as that person who put that, brick there in the Pantheon and we are as important as the trees, and they are as important as we are. Obviously, again, different, religious beliefs might contradict that. But it all has a purpose together of helping us find who we are and what it's all about.

Richard: 22:55

And also, getting out of your own head can be helpful. People that come to therapy because they've got a lot of anxious thoughts, maybe like we were talking about earlier on, they've got this feeling of paranoia, maybe, that everybody's talking about them. Everybody's looking at them. They'll stand in a bus queue and they'll be quite anxious because they feel so uncomfortable being out, being seen. They're judging themselves because they think that they're weird or whatever it is that they've been telling themselves all their life. And that feeling, that internalised feeling that could have started with somebody else that they've took on board and internalised They're also pushing it out there so it creates this feeling that everybody else is thinking weird things about me. Everybody else thinks I look funny. Everybody else is judging me. Well, to, to get out of your head and stop thinking about yourself and to wonder about the window opposite in the shop, opposite the bus stop, there's a shop window. I wonder who put that in. I wonder when that was put in. I wonder if it's new. I wonder if it's old. I wonder if it was a team of people or it was just one person. To wonder about things that are external to you. if you have some anxious issues, that can be really helpful for people.

Fiona: 24:14

And if you're talking about the idea of being on a bus, then just wondering about, I wonder where that person over there's going? I wonder where that person has been? I wonder what that person did for dinner last night? I wonder, I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.

Richard: 24:30

Yeah, there can be a wonderful creative world we can step into that can, create a lot of positive feelings. I'm not saying we can cure depression and anxiety by just wondering, But

Fiona: 24:44

But it can certainly help. it can certainly it can certainly help. Although I do recognise that, anybody listening to this who is depressed with a capital D. They might be swearing at us right now because if you are in that state, it can be really quite difficult, maybe even impossible at the time to see the wonder in the world. I've witnessed that with people who just, no, no.

Richard: 25:13

And that can be quite hope, not hopeless. Yes, it can be hopeless. Because the opposite to that is what we try and create and, help people with is to create hope, is to find that bit of hope that's inside of you that says, but I know I am capable of seeing brighter days. Literally brighter. We know that depression, genuinely, you give somebody colour charts and depending on their mood at the time, they'll see colours darker. One week to the next if their mood improves. The colours will brighten to them in their brain. They'll look at the colour red and it's a brighter red. It's, but it's the same as it was a month ago when they were in their depression mode, state. It's, it's, it's horrible what it, what depression can do to our brain. We can't trust it. We have to bear that in mind. We can't trust

Fiona: 26:05

we can't, and even just talking about hope will be really frustrating and annoying for some people because they just can't go there, can't get to that. So in therapy it would be working the way round to getting to it, but I just, I just wanted to put that out there so that people would know that we recognize that these things aren't always as easy as we might say, Yay, just put your wellies on and go and jump in a puddle. What? Don't be ridiculous. I'm not doing that. That's not going to help me. No, no, no. but to a particular client at a particular moment, they, that might really be unhelpful. But having recognized that sometimes it's problematic for a lot of people it's something that they can think, Oh, yes, I don't do enough of that wondering thing. Let's do some more of it. What can I wonder about?

Richard: 27:01

Hmm.

Fiona: 27:01

And then just, try it out rather than just being completely engrossed in life.

Richard: 27:09

Well, it's meditative as well. And we know from so many studies that meditating in one shape or form, whether it's a, I guess, mindfulness, whether it's formal meditation or formal mindfulness, I'm going to focus on one thing, or it's more of an informal one that you're just noticing what you're experiencing, which you can do in the shower. You can smell your soap, your shampoo, if you use it, I still do. I have very little hair, but I still use shampoo. It's just habit. It's the tiniest amount on my hands, but I still rub it into my head. Tell you what, the people who make Head Shoulders, they need to make some other soap and call it Knees and Toes.

Fiona: 27:58

Took me a moment.

Richard: 28:00

Sorry.

Fiona: 28:01

Yes.

Richard: 28:05

Anyway, um, we need to finish off. Is there anything else you wanted to natter about before we leave these good people for another week?

Fiona: 28:13

no, except really to say that, as we've indicated, these episodes are to run parallel to the programme Evolve to Thrive, so we've come to the end of month one already.

Richard: 28:25

That's gone by quick.

Fiona: 28:27

Doesn't it? Doesn't it just? Time flies.

Richard: 28:31

Did we say what we were going to talk about next week? Do we want to give them a tease? But we might change our mind anyway.

Fiona: 28:36

So, we've done month one is who am I? Month two is who do I want to be? So, we're starting that process next week with a topic from within week one of month two.

Richard: 28:50

And just to say, If you enjoy our podcasts and you want to listen you don't have to join the Evolve to Thrive program. Very welcome to. You might really get some benefit from it. And it's quite cheap, to be honest, you know, for what you get. You can probably take a real turn in your life if you need it. So do sign up for it, but don't feel that you have

Fiona: 29:09

No, you don't have to. we, we, deliberately do these as, as standalone, but they are connected. That's where we're getting our formatting for, for this series.

Richard: 29:19

Yes, and I'd much rather that if we were to be earning any pennies through this podcast, it was through selling something on a website than it was having advertisers and sponsors. that doesn't sit right with me. It really doesn't. I can't imagine a product or a service that I could ethically align with.

Fiona: 29:44

Well, even, even if we could, that's not what we're about.

Richard: 29:47

No, that's not the point. No. And these podcast episodes are going to be here whether we, whether we do evolve to thrive or not. So,

Fiona: 29:54

Exactly.

Richard: 29:55

because we like nattering once a week for half an hour or so and putting something good out into the world.

Fiona: 30:00

We do, indeed.

Richard: 30:01

And we'll do it again next week, so join us then. Have a lovely week, everybody. Do get in touch. You can message us in lots of different ways. You can email us. You can WhatsApp us. You can send us a text message. And then it's anonymous, because we can't reply. But if you send it by WhatsApp, if you've actually got a question you want an answer to, we might be able to reply to that, if it's appropriate. Um, yeah, so please feel free. The link to all of these things is in the show notes. So have a super week, everybody. Speak to you next time.

Fiona: 30:33

Bye!