Mental Strength

This week on Therapy Natters we discuss the importance of tailoring personal development and therapy to individual needs, the value of understanding different perspectives, and the role of mental strength. 

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Good day to you, therapy fans! Welcome to Therapy Natters! Maybe the only podcast series where you'll find a mix of psychological education, personal development, and some Monty Python references, maybe. I'm Richard Nicholls, the one usually responsible for the Monty Python references, and with me, fortunately for you, we have Fiona Biddle to make sense of everything else as well

Fiona: 0:33

that worries me because yesterday I recorded three reels that were from Batman.

Richard: 0:40

Which Batman? Really? What,

Fiona: 0:43

don't know anything about Batman. And one of them referenced Bananarama as well. So, I must be picking up vibes from you, Richard.

Richard: 0:52

the quirkiness?

Fiona: 0:54

Yes, because I didn't really know what on earth was happening.

Richard: 0:58

That does sound like me Oh no

Fiona: 0:59

Oh dear. Help

Richard: 1:03

Oh, you'll be fine. You'll be But, Yeah, it goes to show that, to a degree, there are no rules as such as to, how to live, how to be. We've all got our own unique way of seeing things and seeing the world and the meaning behind it all. The meaning behind a Monty Python quote that I might throw out there from time to time throughout the series, and I'm sure I have done. I know I have done. There's a reason for it. It means something to me that might not mean something to somebody else, but it makes something click,

Fiona: 1:39

Yep

Richard: 1:40

And I think that's why as a hypnotherapist, I love getting into the mindset of each individual client that I've got to get their references, get their view of the world so that then I can create a metaphor or something or just reference something or just mention something throughout the session and their brain just goes click and just wakes up and soaks it all up because it means something to them. That wouldn't mean anything to anybody else. And that's why, although I love things like, I don't know many of the names, I mean Headspace is a popular one, but these apps and online recordings and things like that. And I give all of my recordings that I've made over the years to my private clients, but they're all generic. I'm sure they're great. And clients and my patrons that get them as well, they listen to my recordings and go, yeah, these are lovely. These are great, but they're still generic. And I think it's so important that when we create something for our own personal development, or if you're a therapist, to create something for somebody else, that it's about them.

Fiona: 2:48

Yeah, and of course we, you know, we're doing our podcast and the Evolve to Thrive program, we know that it's generic because it has to be, but the number of times in that program that we're saying, you do it your way, you do it your way, and there aren't, rules. Everybody lives to rules. Even if that rule might be that there aren't any rules, there's, always a framework that we live to.

Richard: 3:17

We were talking about this earlier on, and I was reminded of, and I know I've spoke about it on my podcast and I might have said it on here, so apologies if I'm repeating myself, but you know, it's what we do we're therapists. I was in a supermarket queue at the checkout once, a few years ago now, and I heard the woman in front of me chatting to a friend, and she was, she was slagging off her sister, because her sister had got depression. And she was saying that something along the lines of, I don't know why my sister has got depression. I've got far more things on my plate than she has, and I'm okay. Don't know what her problem is. And I thought to myself, Ugh, you don't know how big her plate is. And you don't know how much she's trying to carry. if you've got a small plate, because that's all you've got available right now, because you, haven't had much sleep, you can't carry much, and you're, Trying to stack a load of oranges on top of each other, you know, you're gonna drop them. They're not, they're not gonna go well. But if you've got a massive platter and all you're carrying is peas, you carry thousands of them, you've not got a problem. It's unique to each individual person. There is no, well, this is how, strong a human is. That's not how humans are.

Fiona: 4:29

But each individual, talking of the rules, has their definition of what depression, one of many things is. So one person, let's take two people who are experiencing exactly the same thing, which, I know that's a bit silly, but imagine it, just two people feeling exactly the same thing. One could say, I'm depressed, and I'm stuck here, and it's a terrible, terrible thing, and I've got no control. And the other person could say, feeling really down at the moment, what can I do to pull myself out of it?

Richard: 5:08

Yes.

Fiona: 5:09

So in that situation with your lady in the queue, we don't know what the sister's definition of depression is, and we don't know perhaps even what she might be trying to get out of it, it sounds a little callous, but unconsciously what the potential benefits might be to her of taking on that label. So, it just comes down to everybody's different, but there isn't, isn't a right way.

Richard: 5:40

The reason that experience popped into my mind is because I had a message sent through my Patreon page. So, hello! This is from Barbara, who's a patron of mine, and she asked a question about therapy. Because she said, I feel bad that I need to go to therapy, knowing that there are people out there who have had worse experiences than me. My childhood wasn't great, but it wasn't that bad either, and nothing traumatic has happened since. Why do I need therapy, but my sister probably doesn't? And that's from Barbara. She didn't say where she's from, I don't know, but thank you for asking the question, Barbara. And, well, we've already answered it, I think, haven't we? Because we're all different.

Fiona: 6:20

Yeah, and I was sort of struck by the need therapy. It's one of a range of options that people can use to move from point A to point B, or even discover why they are at point A without necessarily even moving to point B, but it's a range of options, and the fact that Barbara feels she needs it. Fine. The fact that her sister might be saying she doesn't need it, it's her way, and fine. I mean, I think I can speak for you, Richard, but of us therapists look at most people in the world and think everybody needs therapy. But then then it's not. It sounds sort of derogatory, but it isn't. It's saying We're all human beings. We don't live perfect lives. Nothing's ever perfect. So why not involve somebody who knows about these things and knows how to relate to you to help you make sense of it all? That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing.

Richard: 7:25

And having resilience, having some mental strength that means you can handle disappointment or rejection or whatever, we've got to actually have those experiences. And if we haven't, then it can come as quite a shock. And this is why everybody has a different attitude, even if you've got an identical sister who is literally a clone, they've still had a different life to you. They've seen things and experiences that are different to you. A couple of months ago, me and my wife went shopping and we came out of this shop and there was a little toddler sitting on top of the bin outside of the shop and they were bawling their eyes out And their dad was holding their hand and supporting them. I don't know what had happened. Had they fallen over? Had they dropped an ice cream? I don't know what had happened. They were beside themselves. It was the worst day of their life. But probably what had happened was nothing. Maybe they wanted a red t shirt, and they didn't have a red one, they only got yellow ones, and they were really gutted about it. And it was the worst thing that had ever happened to them, because they're young. And it is the worst thing that's ever happened to them Until we have these disappointments, until we have these emotions, until we experience all our feelings we don't get the mental strength to be able to deal with those situations. So that when we drop an ice cream, or our favourite TV show is cancelled, or and I remember, it reminds me of when my son was really little, I went to pick him up from, from his grandma's, and and I said, Has he had a good day? Oh, yes, but he got really, really upset over Little Red Tractor. So, what happened? She said, It wasn't on. And he thought it was, but it was an advert. I bet you wouldn't know about Little Red Tractor.

Fiona: 9:18

I don't, but I can imagine.

Richard: 9:20

Oh, it was lovely. Oh, Little Red Tractor was amazing. Stop motion animation with plasticine, so it was done properly. Well done. Got Derek Griffiths doing one of the voices in it. Oh, it was brilliant. I loved Little Red Tractor. Heh Lovely! With another tractor called Big Blue. Oh, it was brilliant. That takes me back. And an advert came on for it on CBeebies. And he thought it was about to start, because it was an advert. And he got his hopes up. Oh, my favourite TV programme, Little Red Tractor! And it was just an advert, and something else came on. And my mother in law said, It broke his heart. It broke his heart that Little Red Tractor wasn't on the telly. Now, of course, that was one of the worst things that had ever happened to him up until that point, but it's a nothing. Now. He's 20 now. Things are different. If his favourite TV show gets cancelled, as likely things do because that's the world we've got with TV nowadays, he's probably going to feel exactly the same way as he did back then, in theory, because the feelings are the same. I'm disappointed. But the ability to handle that is so very, very different, but only comes having those experiences. That's how we gain strength. We don't strengthen our muscles without exercise. It's the same.

Fiona: 10:33

I was just gonna use exactly the same analogy. Yeah. To to develop strength. We have to exercise. So Yes. Week three of Evolve to Thrive is primarily about mental strength and there's various exercises, but one of the things that we talk about there is some of the myths around it. So, I thought it'd be a nice idea to discuss some of those myths, three of them. And the first one is that self pity is bad. You know, other people will judge you for feeling pity for yourself, as if that is a sign of a lack of mental strength, but to me, within reason, self pity is as valid an emotion as any other. Why not? Let yourself have it. If your favourite TV show is cancelled, if you drop your ice cream, however old you are, whether you're 20, 40, 60, 80, allow yourself to feel a bit, oh, poor me. That's fine. Now, wallowing long term in that self pity, not so good. But you can have a bit of it. It's not, it's not a sign of weakness to, do a little poor me thing.

Richard: 11:53

Mm.

Fiona: 11:54

And as you said with the TV show, that can be disappointing and it can trigger the same sort of response as when you were a child. So it's okay.

Richard: 12:03

What we tend to find, though, is that if somebody has what we sometimes call arrested development, they might get stuck, in their emotional state as a 10 year old. Their intellect moves forward and they become 40, eventually. But their emotional state gets stuck, aged. four, three, two, who knows, because of something traumatic that happened, then it can be quite hard to not feel like a toddler who's just been rejected, or abandoned, or forgotten, or something like that. And that's why people sometimes do need. Need. Need is probably wrong, But that's the first thing that pops into my mind, that they need to go to therapy. But then some of this can be explored on your own.

Fiona: 12:53

You could certainly build awareness. I mean, I think therapy has, am I being simplistic here? Probably, but I quite like being simplistic. Therapy has two purposes. One is to gain awareness, and the second is to make change. and either of those things, or both, you can do on your own. But sometimes working with somebody else who is disinterested in you, i. e. they are not part of your world, can make it an awful lot easier, because they can point things out that other people might not. For example, that, why aren't you allowing yourself a little bit of time to have some self pity over this situation, or, they wouldn't say it like this, but paraphrasing, isn't it about time you stopped? Now this is where, in supervision for our listeners, when we're doing supervision we will say things like that, but when we're actually talking to the client, we find a way to say it that's palatable.

Richard: 13:56

Well less judgemental,

Fiona: 13:58

Yes, Yeah, we would get the client to decide for themselves whether it was about time. Without saying It's about time.

Richard: 14:07

That's worth asking the question

Fiona: 14:09

Yeah. When would the time be right?

Richard: 14:13

Yeah cos it might not be now..

Fiona: 14:16

So if it's a week on Tuesday, Okay, so what's going to happen between now and a week on Tuesday to enable you to let that go? Yeah,

Richard: 14:25

And because of what's sometimes called secondary gain, Sometimes, there is a part of us that wants to hold on to symptoms, because it serves a purpose in some way. It might serve a purpose to the two year old that's inside of you, or the ten year old, or whoever, but it might serve a purpose. And if there is a part of us that says, no, I want to hold on to this symptom because it does me good, then we need to understand that part of us. And recognise, okay, there are some benefits, but are there more benefits in letting it go? Let's work on this and let that part of you that wants whatever benefit, to see that we can still get that benefit elsewhere.

Fiona: 15:07

Absolutely, so that's, again, it's an awareness building exercise, it's to find out what is going on for you, if there is a part, what that part needs and wants. So the next one on the list, there's only three so don't panic, is do not compare yourself to others. Now this, remember this is in our section on myths, so people will say, you know, don't compare yourself to other people. Hmm, well if you're not comparing yourself to other people, how do you know where you are? If you take it as don't compare yourself to other people, meaning you don't have to be like other people. Then that's okay, but you need some sort of baseline information. So, take the ice cream. If, I got an ice cream and dropped it, and I really went off on one, like a two year old, because I've been taken on board the idea of you do you, and don't compare yourself to other people, well, I don't think that's going to do me an awful lot of good. It's better to have some sort of measure of what people do that you can compare your response to, to determine whether you're in a sort of relevant zone.

Richard: 16:23

And this is why we have to create something unique when it comes to personal development for ourselves. Because there are no rules. And yet, you will see the absolutes that come from social media posts and so on. And I'm just as guilty of that. I think I made an episode once about comparison. All about how comparison is the thief of joy, that famous phrase. And yeah, there is a huge element of problems come from comparison. But there are some things we need a comparison. How can we improve unless we can see that other people can do better, whatever better means We won't push ourselves. If, well, this is the fastest I can run. Are you sure? Because somebody can run faster. Well maybe I can too. Sometimes comparison isn't the thief of joy. Sometimes comparison is motivating as well.

Fiona: 17:20

Yeah.

Richard: 17:21

We need to bear that in mind. There are no rules.

Fiona: 17:24

Except there are

Richard: 17:25

Except that one, yeah.

Fiona: 17:27

Yes that there are no rules, that's the rule. I was thinking earlier, I don't quite know why it came up, but I was thinking earlier about the word naughty, and

Richard: 17:37

See, that's positive thing to me. The first thing that popped into my mind was, Oh, it's good to be a bit naughty.

Fiona: 17:43

I was thinking of it in terms of small children, and how in order to be naughty you have to be going against a value system that you are aware of.

Richard: 17:53

Yeah

Fiona: 17:54

So little children can't, by definition be naughty cause they don't know what they're going against. But

Richard: 18:01

No such thing as a naughty child. There's child's no such thing Well,

Fiona: 18:05

is when they get a bit older. Little one's no. But when they get a bit older, there is, because they are doing that, they are going against the, rules that have been set and the value system that's been imposed on them. You do have to have some rules but when you get a bit older then the thing is to, and we looked about this didn't we a little bit in terms of, values. it's looking at those rules and deciding for yourself whether they are appropriate to follow. So if your parents had set you a rule that you needed to go to bed before nine o'clock and you're still doing so at the age of 40, then maybe you need to think about it. A quiz question came up the other day about something to do with The Exorcist, the film. It was on University Challenge, I was watching it with my father. And I paused it and I said, do you remember Mike Cooper? And he said, yes, I do remember Mike Cooper, who was a student and trained me in gymnastics. I was never any good, but he did. And I said, Mike Cooper told me not to watch The Exorcist. I was only about twelve at the time. And I have never watched The Exorcist because Mike Cooper told me not to.

Richard: 19:18

Well I think that rule belonged to a 12 year old.

Fiona: 19:22

Yes. But I'm not going to change it because I don't want to watch The Exorcist. But anyway, it's just an, it's, it's, well I thought it was quite a nice example of how rules can stick.

Richard: 19:32

Yes.

Fiona: 19:33

So, the third myth about mental strength is to stay in the present.

Richard: 19:41

Hmm.

Fiona: 19:42

Stay in the present, you know, that Kung Fu Panda phrase, you know, What is it? The past is history, The past is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. And today is the present which is why it's a gift. Yeah. And with, the prevalence of mindfulness and so on now, and I could imagine if our listeners, some of our listeners are mindfulness people, they might be yelling at me right now, but I'm not saying being in the present isn't a good thing, It's just it's not the only thing. Sometimes you need to look at the past. Sometimes you need to look towards the future. And so if you're writing your autobiography, then staying in the present really isn't going to help you. If you're trying to find out why you might be behaving in a certain way or why you're not behaving in a certain way, looking at the past is helpful. If you're Elon Musk and wanting to go to Mars, then spending quite a bit of time in the future is rather important.

Richard: 20:48

It's almost like nothing's a problem unless it causes a problem.

Fiona: 20:53

Gosh, that's a phrase

Richard: 20:54

the first time I've said that this season.

Fiona: 20:56

First time this season, won't be the last.

Richard: 20:59

No, I mean, I say it every day to somebody It just hasn't cropped up in the last three weeks.

Fiona: 21:05

But the thing is, it's about appropriateness of where you are in time.

Richard: 21:11

Yeah. we often think of there is some truth in this, that depression is often caused from spending too much time in the past, and anxiety is caused by spending too much time in the future. And that we should spend more time in the present. Yeah, you're right, Fiona. Although there is some truth to that, we also need the awareness of the past to recognise why we're feeling the way that we're feeling in the present. If we are triggered, if we want to use that word, if our brain is being reminded something that happened when we were nine, but we're 49, and the reason it feels so bad is because of how bad it felt when we were nine, we do need that awareness. We do need to look back and go, Am I just being reminded of losing at ping pong, and I was gutted or felt stupid because everybody else could could play better than me. And I'm remembering that because that happened to me. I was gutted because the meaning behind it wasn't, oh I need to practice at this. The meaning was, I'm useless and I don't like that I'm useless feeling. Experiencing that again on a training event that I was on with you once, and this wasn't your fault. We've had this conversation

Fiona: 22:19

Yes, I know what you're referring to Yeah.

Richard: 22:21

It brought it back, but was it that guy that was triggering me, making me feel stupid and small? Or, yeah, partly. But also, no, I just felt like a small child and my brain just went back and brought all that feeling back. And until I sat on the train and figured it out on the way home and went, uh, it's just that. Unless I looked back, I couldn't move on. I needed that. That was important.

Fiona: 22:49

So the thing here is appropriate, and too much. Those are the things. It's to get that balance right. Do you know the book The Time Paradox by Philip Zimbardo?

Richard: 23:02

I know of Philip Zimbardo.

Fiona: 23:04

same, same guy.

Richard: 23:06

Did I read his Time Paradox book back in the day? I think he's just died.

Fiona: 23:11

Oh, has he?

Richard: 23:12

Shall I Google that? I think he very recently Because I remember thinking Oh, he was still alive. Yeah, he died 14th of October 2024.

Fiona: 23:23

Missed that one. Aw.

Richard: 23:26

Yeah, age 91. I guess I remember reading it and going, Oh Philip Zimbardo was still alive. I sit on the fence about Philip Zimbardo cos there was a lot of weird stuff in his studies that might not really stand up scrutiny

Fiona: 23:39

Of course there, there is. But you know, if he, if he died the age 91 just now, then that's a long time that he's been doing stuff. And the Time Paradox is relatively new in that career span. You can, well, you Richard and any of our listeners, you can, get some of the stuff online without buying the book, so have a look there first to see if it suits you. I think it's just thetimeparadox. com or something like that, just Google it, you'll find it. And this is very much, that it's about appropriateness of your view on time.

Richard: 24:15

mm-Hmm

Fiona: 24:15

So there's a little questionnaire that you can find and it will tell you that your, your way of being in time and then it'll tell you what that means, which can then lead you to think, oh actually I'm spending too much time in the past. He divides the past into two different types, divides the future into two different types, and then, or it could be I'm spending too much time in that type of future, when I'd be better if I was spending it in that type of future? So, it's just quite a useful book if you are interested.

Richard: 24:49

Mm The two types of future that crops up a lot in therapy. There's the worst case scenario, and the best case scenario, I guess. And people do tend to live, because of the amount of emotion it generates, in the worst case scenario. What's a horrible thing that could happen if I miss this meeting, for example. So they put more importance on making sure they attend a particular meeting. Because to them, if they don't attend it, then they catastrophise they don't attend it, their boss thinks bad of them. And of course, if somebody thinks bad of them, then they're on the list for a verbal warning, which means they're on the list for a written warning, which means they're on the list to lose their job, and that means they're going to lose their house and etc. When actually, no, it might be that that's not that important. But out of habit People can catastrophise and look at the worst case scenarios to everything. And that's probably not what Philip Zimbardo was on about with his two types of the future, but I do see that a lot with people in the therapy room.

Fiona: 25:51

Yes, it's not exactly what he's talking about, but we can have both. I won't go into the details of his now, people can Google that for themselves, but it certainly is. What you're saying is, is really important there, that we think about how we're thinking about the future.

Richard: 26:10

Mm.

Fiona: 26:11

And about anything really, think about how you're thinking about things.

Richard: 26:14

Mm! It's quite meta, there's lots of layers. Thinking that you're thinking. When that's done With a lot of unpleasant emotions, that can cause a lot of anxiety. Because, especially if it feeds itself, and what they're thinking about is whether they might be anxious tomorrow. Now they're thinking about the fact that they're thinking about whether they're going to be anxious tomorrow. Now they're anxious about whether they're going to be anxious tomorrow, and around around that goes. And, yeah, we're probably going to be anxious over something tomorrow. That tells you like we were talking about the other week. That tells you your values. Tells you what's important. Don't let those go. The things that make us anxious are usually important to us Yeah, don't let your values go.

Fiona: 26:58

No, and anxiety, well any emotion, and this does tie in with the concept of mental strength, it's about recognising that any emotion can be completely appropriate and sometimes ones that seem to be good might be inappropriate. So that thinking about it is really quite important rather than just being in it. Is to notice, is this something that it's okay to be anxious about?

Richard: 27:27

Mmm.

Fiona: 27:28

Or is it really, obviously you'd use this word for yourself, not judging somebody else, but am I being silly to be anxious about this? And I don't know about you, but I can quite often have not that often, but sometimes, have those sort of three o'clock in the morning times when I'm feeling anxious about something.

Richard: 27:49

Mmm.

Fiona: 27:51

And it can be quite hard to, at that time, to get yourself to the point of recognising that this is really rather silly and I don't need to be anxious about it. Because, at 9 o'clock the following morning, when you've got so

Richard: 28:07

It's nothing.

Fiona: 28:09

you've got all your wits about you, and it's not something to be anxious about. Or you just deal with it.

Richard: 28:16

And that's the thing, we don't have our wits about us at 3 o'clock in the morning, half of our brain is still asleep. There's lots of neurological activity going on, but there's lots that is slow and And that works for positive stuff as well. At 3 o'clock in the morning, I've been really excited about an idea that I've just had. Oh, this is going to revolutionise my career. Oh, this is fantastic. Oh my god. I don't know, maybe I've written a fiction story, a short story or something. Oh my god, this is fantastic. I love this. The next day I play it back in my head and go,

Fiona: 28:48

Huh?

Richard: 28:49

That's not even any good. That's not interesting to anybody, even to me. But it did at three o'clock in the morning, because my brain just latched onto it and created all these wonderful emotions. Well, they're not always wonderful at three o'clock in the morning. It depends on where we are in our life.

Fiona: 29:07

Which is why interrogators like to get people overnight.

Richard: 29:11

Yes. Yeah.

Fiona: 29:12

Whether that's good interrogation or bad interrogation. They like to get their interrogatees In the wee small hours when they are. Not all there

Richard: 29:23

Yeah, they're not all there. Right, I tell you what, have you seen the time? We need to finish off Fiona, otherwise we'll be nattering until Tuesday. If anybody's got any questions that you'd like us to answer, there are lots of ways of getting in touch with us. You can WhatsApp us. There's a mobile number that's in our show notes in the description there. That takes you through to WhatsApp, and that's a genuine number that will come up on our screens and things that and we can reply to that one.

Fiona: 29:52

Yeah, we will reply pretty quickly, not necessarily immediately, and you might even get a voice note or a video note if that feels like it would be the best way to reply to you.

Richard: 30:04

Sometimes it is

Fiona: 30:05

And if I've got my makeup on.

Richard: 30:08

Comparison is the thief of joy, Fiona But if you want to do something anonymously, there's a link there as well that sends us an SMS. We don't get your number then, but we still get the message. So you can ask us an anonymous question, you can email us, there's a form on the website. There's lots of ways getting in touch. And we're on social media as well, Instagram and Facebook. You can leave some comments on there, you can message us on there. There's lots of ways of getting in touch feel free. That'd be really nice to hear from everybody. Right, let's love them and leave them for another week, Fiona. Let's go for now. Have a super week. See you all next time. Bye for now, everybody Bye