Love

It's Valentine's Day!
The perfect time for Richard & Fiona to explore the psychological side of love.

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Richard 0:39

Hey there, everyone. It's episode 100 of Therapy Natters today. We've been doing this for nearly two years. If you're new to the show, where you been? Thanks for showing up though. This is the podcast where myself, Richard Nicholls, and fellow psychotherapist Fiona Biddle natter about something that you've asked us to natter about, possibly. To help you make sense of why we do what we do, like what we like, hate what we hate, and love what we love. Are you alright there, Fiona?

Fiona 1:10

I'm absolutely fine. Yes. And we, we decided that we were going to stop at episode 100. Did we not?

Richard 1:19

A month or so ago, we were like, we'll do it all the way to 100 and then we'll we'll have a rest and we'll leave that as Season 1 and come back in the summer. But, um, we've got another guest next week now, one extra.

Fiona 1:31

So we are, we are going to 101, but yes, it was, this was designed to be our last one before we changed tack somewhat.

Richard 1:40

Yeah.

Fiona 1:40

But with the guests that we're getting next week, when We were finally able to grab them. we couldn't sort of resist, so that's why we're going to go to 101. But today,

Richard 1:51

looks at their numbers of the episodes anyway, do they? Do you? Maybe you do, I don't know. But it just felt, it would have felt nice to stop at 100, but I'd rather, I'd rather get one last guest on. That be quite nice for next week.

Fiona 2:04

absolutely.

Richard 2:05

it's Valentine's Day today. When this come, this episode comes out. We record this on the Friday, so it's the Friday before at the minute. it's February the ninth, everybody. But when it comes out, it'll be the 14th. it'll be Valentine's Day, 14th of February when everybody's full of heart shaped pancakes from yesterday. I've seen those in the supermarket already. Have you seen those heart shaped pancakes?

Fiona 2:27

I do not look at the Valentine's section of the supermarkets, I'm afraid. But, yeah, heart shaped, everything. Red, everything. But yes, Happy Valentine's Day to

Richard 2:38

Happy Valentine's Day! I have not had a card from my wife again!

Fiona 2:45

And given that you just said that it's the 9th, actually, when you're recording this, you must know you're not going to get one. I, however, am expecting to have a letterbox full of cards, because I always expect it and I never get any.

Richard 2:59

Me and my wife used to send each other, or give each other cards, from day one. We met in 1996, but it was late, it was autumn 96. So yeah, from 1997, February onwards, until probably about four or five years ago, where I think it was Dawn particularly that went, we don't need to do this. You don't need to get me a card for Valentine's Day. It's a trick. It's a con. It's a capitalist trick. Don't fall for it, Richard. Don't get me a card. Oh, oh, oh, okay, because you're not getting me one. No, I'm not getting you one, Richard. Okay, fine, fine, fine. And every year I do. I just can't not. I just, oh! But she knows. that I'm going to.

Fiona 3:41

I saw a nice thing on, I think it was on Instagram, somewhere like that of a couple going to the card stand in the supermarket and just choosing the card that they would give to the other one, showing it to them and then putting them back. Well, that's beaten the system, hasn't it?

Richard 3:59

That's a good idea. I quite like that. Yeah, so, with it being Valentine's Day, the psychological concept of love is quite fascinating, I think. Why we love, and what love is. Because it's not very romantic to think of it as just neurological routines and habits and familiarity and safety and attachment, but is it? I think, I think that's okay. I think that's quite, to me, that's romantic enough that, oh yeah, my brain just can't live without you. Out of habit. Oh, oh, fine, thanks. But that's okay, isn't it? Is that what love is? Am I being really cynical?

Fiona 4:39

Hmm. What else can it be, really? I mean, we are physical beings and all our feelings come from chemical responses. Now, we've got a bit of a chicken and egg thing going on. Does the chemical come because of the psychological, or does the psychological come from the chemical? I don't think it's always one or it's always the other. And then if you wanted to incorporate ideas from the external to the self, or external to the physical body, and think of things like the soul, or Jung's collective unconscious. Then it gets awfully complicated. But, to me, it always comes down to, does it matter?

Richard 5:27

Hmm,

Fiona 5:28

got the feeling. If you have a feeling of love, then you have a feeling of love. Does it really matter where it's coming from? What's happening in the brain?

Richard 5:39

When I was young, 10, 11, something like that, I used to read the Beano. Maybe I was younger. No, I think probably 10. I used to read the Beano, Dennis the Menace, Roger the Dodger, my absolute favourite, the con artist. Really liked Roger the Dodger, that's no surprise. 'cos he was always

Fiona 5:58

Bit

Richard 5:58

blagging everything.

Fiona 5:59

Oh, I don't know. a long time since I read it.

Richard 6:04

Roger Dodger was just a, a blagger, basically, it, ah, how can I get away with doing the least amount of work possible and still getting praise for it? I thought, I like this guy! Hey ho, here we are all these years later, still Roger the Dodger. And that's a label I need to challenge. I'll speak to my therapist about that next week. So, there was this one comic strip, and I can't remember what it was. I think it was just a football team or something like that. But some of the characters in this comic strip, one of the girls liked one of the boys, and the boy liked the girl, and that was just how it was in this comic strip of the Beano and one of the other characters said to this guy Why do you like her? And this character said because she likes me and I thought that's quite sweet, but also maybe I was old enough. Maybe I was 11. I was old enough to look at that and go that's not enough Just because she likes you that's enough for you to like her but all these years later. I think of that and go Oh, okay. What the kid meant was, she makes me feel liked. I like the feeling I get from her liking me. And that's what I like. And I put that on her. Well, I think we do that as adults. That's kind of what it is. I like the way they make me feel.

Fiona 7:22

Absolutely. And anybody who's listening will be able to recognise that when somebody doesn't react well to you, so let's say you're at a party and somebody blanks you, then you have a feeling of, I don't like them because they didn't like me. And if you think of it that way around, then also if you get from somebody, let's say a stranger at a party, if you get that look from a stranger at a party and you go, Oh, they like me. Then you do like them. it's a normal part of connecting us to humans.

Richard 7:57

When I first became a therapist, I read Do I still have it? No, I think I got it out of the library. How to Win Friends and Influence People, Dale Carnegie.

Fiona 8:08

Yes.

Richard 8:09

Elements of it have stood the test of time. But I think that the whole book was just about people will like you. If you act as if you like them, you say something nice about them, you compliment them, it is that simple. You want to win friends and influence people? Tell them they've got nice hair, you know, it can be as simple as that. Oh, I like your coat. It can sometimes be as simple as that. And that gets the ball rolling that says this person is safe. Mostly. And I know there are exceptions to that, because what somebody sees as a threat and somebody else feels as safe and friendly is going to be different based on their experiences through life.

Fiona 8:52

Yesterday I was at an airport and there was a family with a little girl and I saw them at several points in this airport and just have little communications. And then I saw her again and I said, I really like your bag. It was very pretty. It had unicorns on it. And it was just a genuine thing that came, came out of my mouth without any thought. I really like your bag. And she probably was about eight, I would guess. And She said, oh, thank you, and she sort of looked me up and down and I thought, what's she doing? And she said, I like your bag too. She said, it's very pretty. Now, I do quite like that bag. But what I got from that was that she must have been taught, whether, directly or indirectly, that if you're given a compliment, you give one back. And she

Richard 9:45

Yeah,

Fiona 9:45

she looked, for how to give me a compliment back, and it was so sweet. She was, she was, yeah, she was adorable. yeah, it was a nice little conversation. on an escalator.

Richard 9:58

Around the same time as seeing that thing in the Beano maybe a year or so before, so maybe I was a little bit younger. I remember saying to a girl we were just playing in the field around the corner from where I lived, I wanted to give this girl a compliment. I can't quite remember why, it was just the thing to do, make her feel safe. And it was a necklace that she had on, and I said, Oh, I like your necklace, that's lovely. And she said, You can't have it! And I thought, oh, I don't want it. That wasn't, that wasn't why I was saying that. It's interesting how two different people can take the same, compliment in different ways. Based on their experiences, the narrative, their view of the world and their view of themselves.

Fiona 10:40

Strangely, in the English language, we don't differentiate the word love very much. We use it, quite a lot, for quite a lot of different feelings. one thing I've noticed lately, when I was young, the word love was you used the word or the phrase, I love you, or just the concept of love very, very narrowly. Whereas now, young people, gosh, she's sounding like an old woman, but young people use the word love much more liberally. They'll say I love you to, friends and, quite to me randomly, so it's changed somewhat. But, I'd rather like to go back to the Greek, because the Greeks had words for eight different types of love. Shall we talk about them?

Richard 11:32

Yes, please.

Fiona 11:33

So, the first is Eros, which is sexual passion, and That's probably the in love place, which most people can recognise, that difference the passionate, type of love. The second one is Philia, which is deep friendship, and so already I would imagine that people listening can see the difference between those two. You might have that feeling of philia for your friends, which is not the same. You can still see that it can have the word love attached to it. The third one, I don't know if these are in a particular order, but the third one, if they are on my screen, third one, Ludos, which is playful love. in an intimate relationship, could precede the Eros, as it's the sort of flirtatious, having fun

Richard 12:33

Hmm.

Fiona 12:34

type of love. Which, just as a sort of slight aside, if we're thinking about relationships and the phases that they go through, I think it's sensible to recognise that they go through phases. So that flirtatious place is probably quite hard to get back to if you've been with somebody for 20 years.

Richard 12:53

Yeah. Be a bit strange. I mean, maybe people can, but it's not that necessary. But it, it's really important to recognise that there are stages to love. The passionate love at the start is not sustainable. But if we equate love to that only, and only that, then we're going to get disappointed further down the line when we still love each other, but there isn't that Always on my mind, attitude, where Like the Metallica song, Nothing Else Matters. It's only them In Your Mind, and I remember that when I met my wife. She was all I could think about, and maybe I was all she could think about for months, probably. What's the line in Nothing Else Matters? So close, no matter how far. Oh, great line. If heavy metal can be romantic, can't we all?

Fiona 13:43

And it's, it's an absolutely amazing feeling and it obviously can be a problem because if people want to get that feeling back, how do you get it back? So if people really want that, then that needs to be something to work on.

Richard 14:01

Yes, we need to be okay with the next part in a relationship, which would be companionate love, where you've got somebody in your life that you still can't imagine your life being the same without them. I can't imagine them not being there.

Fiona 14:16

And that is called?

Richard 14:17

Well, in English it's sort of companionate love, I guess, but what is it in Greek?

Fiona 14:22

Pragma.

Richard 14:24

Pragma. Oh,

Fiona 14:25

I wonder if that's, must be linked to pragmatic. Longstanding love. The deep connected. what was the word you used?

Richard 14:33

Companionate.

Fiona 14:34

And there are people, I mean, we see it in the therapy room, there are people who dismiss that as sort of not as good as, not the same as the ludos or eros and feel it's something wrong. But again, we will all have seen people that we know, maybe are in it, but see people who've got that long standing, companionship that's, so deep and so permanent. So it's certainly something to, I would say, aim for. The next one is Agape, which is the love for everyone, Ooh. which is a sort of You can get into religious context with this, you know, sort of love thy neighbour as thyself. you know, love for everybody in the world, everybody's

Richard 15:27

That's very humanistic. I'm all

Fiona 15:29

Very humanistic. But I think most religions do, most religions. I don't know, I'm not a theologian, but certainly in Christianity, that's, a bedrock of Christianity of loving everybody.

Richard 15:41

I think it's in all the Abrahamic ones.

Fiona 15:43

pretty sure, am sure it is a bedrock of Islam and Judaism.

Richard 15:49

And Buddhism as well.,

Fiona 15:50

it probably is in all, but I can't claim know.

Richard 15:54

Yeah. Otherwise it wouldn't They wouldn't stick around.

Fiona 15:58

There is an element, though, that's, In some types and some levels of religions is it's love everybody as long as they are of our type.

Richard 16:07

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Love everybody, just not them. Yeah. Okay.

Fiona 16:14

The next one is Philosia, which is the love of the self.

Richard 16:18

Oi Oi!

Fiona 16:20

Oh you,

Richard 16:22

Sorry. Uh!

Fiona 16:26

If you keep this into the edit I would just tell the listeners that his head collapsed on the desk when he said that

Richard 16:31

Yeah. Sorry. I might be 48, but I also might as well be 14.

Fiona 16:38

Yes, well it's, that's fine, but I don't think it's meaning what you were thinking of there.

Richard 16:46

Yeah.

Fiona 16:47

What's that song? Whitney Houston song. What's that Whitney I will always love you. No, the one about the self. The Greatest Love of All.

Richard 16:55

Oh yeah? yes

Fiona 16:56

The Greatest Love of All is about the self. Did you not know that?

Richard 17:00

I didn't but I like the sound of that. That's how it should be. That's the foundations for good mental health.

Fiona 17:05

People use it at weddings thinking it's about, but it's actually about self love.

Richard 17:10

Fair play.

Fiona 17:10

There you go. Then, number seven is Storge. By the way, I have checked on the pronunciations of these words before I came on.

Richard 17:19

Storge.

Fiona 17:21

Which is family love. Oh. So, that's the love that a parent has for a child or a child has for a parent.

Richard 17:30

Hmm. A lot of this would feed into attachment theory quite nicely, as well. That if, that starts well. Storge. If that's in your foundations and feels safe and feels right, all the other ones can offshoot from it. I think if storge isn't there, You can't feel the others, possibly.

Fiona 17:52

yep, that, that works,

Richard 17:55

Yeah.

Fiona 17:56

it could apply to the feeling that a grandmother might have for for a baby even before it's arrived.

Richard 18:04

Oh, just wait!

Fiona 18:07

I don't have to wait long,

Richard 18:10

Really?

Fiona 18:13

yes.

Richard 18:15

Are you allowed to say? to edit this out?

Fiona 18:17

no, I'm allowed to say.

Richard 18:20

Well, can you tell me more? Because you have two boys!

Fiona 18:26

Yes, Greg and Louise are expecting a baby in August.

Richard 18:30

Oh, that's amazing! Oh, fantastic! Oh, we'll leave this in. Hey! Congrats, you two! That's amazing! Oh, well, that means August, hang on a minute. That means the last time I s Did

Fiona 18:43

I've known for a while but I haven't been allowed to say anything until now. And it worked fine.

Richard 18:48

Well, I saw Louise only,

Fiona 18:50

She found out she was pregnant the day after you saw her. No connection.

Richard 18:55

bloomin heck! Wow! Oh, that's fabulous news! Hee, hee,

Fiona 19:02

As you can tell from my voice, I'm feeling Storge.

Richard 19:07

Oh, you've, you've, you've properly put a wedge into the episode now!

Fiona 19:12

Yes, I knew I was going to do it. But I did check that I was allowed to. And I do also want to say I recognise that there will be people who go, oh, I don't feel that. Oh, I, so I just want to say I do recognise that. And anyway, number eight, is mania.

Richard 19:31

Ooh!

Fiona 19:32

Ooh, mania, obsessive love. Now, I find it fascinating that that is actually, specifically defined.

Richard 19:42

Mmm.

Fiona 19:42

And again, but in English we don't have these clear definitions and I think it would be helpful if we were a bit clearer. Because you get somebody who's obsessive about somebody, maybe they're a stalker, or coercive control sort of situation, and they will say, but it's because I love her or I love him.

Richard 20:04

Mmm. and they're stuck in that mania phase. Maybe stuck in the original, this person makes me feel fantastic phase, for whatever reason. And can't get out of it. Or they don't want to get out of it. Like I say, nothing's a problem unless it causes a problem. That's gonna cause a problem. It really is. But it's genuine. It's genuine.

Fiona 20:28

I mean, well, we know that it happens. And I think going back to what you were saying about needing to have the Storge, the family love as your base from which the others build. And then it's a question of where are you going in terms of any relationship as to whether it's the right place to be going? And that, that reminded me. We had a question, didn't we?

Richard 20:51

Of course, yes. That really does remind me of something Lauren sent in. I'll read it out. Hi Richard, I wonder if you'd be able to talk at some point about the attraction clients can feel for their therapists. I'm a woman and recently I found myself fantasising about running away with my male therapist and starting a new life with them. I've read comments online that say this is actually quite common. But it feels just like real love. I've not said anything to my therapist, obviously, and never will, but it would be interesting to hear your perspective. Lauren. Thank you for sending that in, Lauren. Because I'm gonna challenge you on something. When you said, I've not said anything to my therapist, obviously, and never will. You can do. If it's appropriate for you. Because a good therapist will understand exactly what's going on and go, it's okay. It's the right feeling to have. You're supposed to feel this way, to a degree. And maybe it's because of that storge being missing in the first place, that when you've got somebody that gives you attention, affection, they genuinely are interested in everything you've got to say, but it's boundaried. It feels Like love. You can't get them out of your head. They make me feel safe. They make me feel loved. Yeah,

Fiona 22:04

And it goes back to what, right at the beginning we were saying about we like people who like us. Yes, you're being shown attention. I mean that's, that's seductive to be shown attention. It makes sense. I think when she said that, it was about not saying anything, it's, how you would say it. It wouldn't be saying, I've fallen in love with you, shall we run away? Kiss me now.

Richard 22:31

Yikes!

Fiona 22:32

It's not saying that, it's saying there's something that I really feel I need to talk to you about. I understand that it's a common sort of thing and I'm not asking you for anything, but this what, what I'm experiencing, makes it easier for everybody because they don't want to be putting the therapist on the spot of having to say No.

Richard 22:54

Well, how vulnerable and wonderful would it be if you have such a good relationship with your therapist that you can have that conversation? And know I feel so safe with you that I'm going to put you in a difficult position and admit something that makes me feel really quite scared and vulnerable. That That so much good! That's the equivalent of about 10 other sessions of attachment security that you're creating. That's great! 'cos the therapist will go, this is quite normal, I totally understand. Just to remind you. We have boundaries, I'm married, And I'm not going to leave my wife for any of my clients, but I totally understand why you feel this way and thank you for letting me know. That's wonderful, that's wonderful. And I hope you can now learn to love yourself because of this.

Fiona 23:36

Yeah. And let's look at what it means, and then I'd refer our listeners to our episode on psychoanalytic psychotherapy with Jan Hepburn,

Richard 23:46

Oh yes!

Fiona 23:47

Where we talked about transference. And What is likely to be going on. I mean, apart from the fact, you know, your therapist, Lauren, your therapist might be hot as hell and be perfect for you in the outside world. We don't know that. But the thing is, it's not that. It's a transference relationship. You're seeing them as something else.

Richard 24:09

Which is, well, she googled it or had a look on some forums or whatever and said, I've seen this is actually quite common. Yes, it is. Yeah, it really, really, really is. Although clients don't tend to admit it. It's great when they do, but often they do keep it to themselves, I think.

Fiona 24:25

well they do in our, our, because we're shorter term psychotherapy mostly,

Richard 24:31

Mostly. Yeah,

Fiona 24:31

yeah, I think likely to come out in the longer term.

Richard 24:35

It's the psychoanalytic, longer term therapy clients that would probably experience this.

Fiona 24:40

The two things, one, transference is a phenomenon that happens in therapy, short term or long term. It happens elsewhere as well. I mean, you can have crushes on teachers or whatever. That's a transferenitial relationship. You're looking for the attachment or the care or the attention that you're not getting. But just, just the basic fact of it is seductive to be paid attention to.

Richard 25:06

Yeah.

Fiona 25:07

That, in itself, you don't really need to go that much further.

Richard 25:10

Yeah. How many more Greek ones are

Fiona 25:13

That's it. we're done.

Richard 25:14

That was it?

Fiona 25:14

Yeah. We've done our eight Greek words. Yes, just to go over them again. So, Eros is the sexual passion. Philia, the deep friendship. Ludos, playful love. Agape love for everyone. Pragma, longstanding love, Philautia love of the self. Storge, family love, mania, obsessive love.

Richard 25:36

I think they're all healthy in their own place. It's getting the balance right of all of them.

Fiona 25:43

it is. And I just then when you said that they're all healthy, I thought mania is that healthy? But then think I think it can be in. Can you have controlled mania? I was thinking then about how people can be absolutely fanatical about a sports team. That

Richard 26:05

in tears.

Fiona 26:06

That can be a mania type of love. So, so, you know, absolutely obsessed with whatever football team winning or any sport. Yeah, that has that feel to it. Which is okay, isn't it? Within reason.

Richard 26:24

Yeah, it's not causing a problem. And it's part of just being human Because the sense of belonging that can come from supporting a team, because you know, you've got an in group. We can be passionate about anything. And that is mania. Whether it's Beatlemania or Chelseamania.

Fiona 26:42

Of course. I hadn't even thought of that until you said it. I was thinking, there are words that have mania stuck on the end, but I couldn't actually think of one. But, yes, Beatlemania is a great example.

Richard 26:53

Yeah, you see those girls in the footage from the 60s, and they're screaming and fainting. It was the right place at the right time, and although the Beatles were very good, very talented folk, all of them, especially Ringo, a lot of people pretend that he can't play the drums. The guy's got rhythm, Genius! I mean, there were some drummers that could not play like Ringo Starr for longer than 30 seconds. He can keep it up for five minutes, so no dissing of the Ringo, please. They were very good, but they were probably no better than anybody else. But they were in the right place at the right time. For teenage girls. Probably. Because it just came at a time when girls were allowed to be girls. I think prior to that, you go into the 50s, girls were supposed to be prim and proper. And you didn't think about sexual thoughts? Oh no! You get into the 60s and they were allowed to. Culture shifted a little bit and the Beatles were just in the right place at the right time.

Fiona 27:48

In my family my mother was, a teenager in the fifties, my aunt was a teenager in the sixties, and Complete difference. Completely

Richard 27:57

oh yeah, I see that actually between my mum and her sister, who was older. Yeah. So, if we're allowed to love, it comes easier. If we're given permission to. If it's within a cultural norm. Maybe it needs to be modelled, as well. What Is Love? That's a song. With the next lyric of Baby Don't Hurt Me. Oh. Yeah, that's not about a toxic relationship. That's about don't leave me, I guess. Thinking of Haddaway early 90s. There's probably lots of songs called What Is Love.

Fiona 28:31

And I went um, What's Love Got To Do With It.

Richard 28:35

What's a glove got to do with it? Sorry, silly joke. That was a Jasper Carrot joke, I think, that one. Sorry.

Fiona 28:43

Do like Jasper Carrot.

Richard 28:44

He's great. I used to get confused with him for some reason. People used to listen to my podcast back in the early days, in the mid 2000s, and go, I like this guy. He reminds me of Jasper Carrot. I'm like, I don't sound anything like Jasper Carrot. But to anybody outside of the Midlands, I do. apparently anybody in the Midlands has got a Birmingham accent, So we don't! We don't. My accent isn't Birmingham at all. Maybe it is everybody else.

Fiona 29:09

me, it's, you're close to Birmingham, which is where you are.

Richard 29:14

Yeah,

Fiona 29:15

If you were in Leicester, you'd be less close to Birmingham.

Richard 29:19

and it'd be a slightly clipped end to the, to the words. Yeah.

Fiona 29:24

funny thing accents.

Richard 29:25

I love accents. And that's a genuine, I don't know, which love would that be? To think that I've got a love. See, the reason I love accents is because the UK is such a tiny little place, but it's got all these different cultures with all these different words. If people can have arguments over the name of a bread roll. It's called a batch. It's called a barm. No, it's called a cob. It's called a roll. It's not called a roll. Otherwise, how would you ask for a sausage roll? What do you mean a sausage roll? Do you mean a sausage roll or a sausage roll? Just call it a batch and be done with it. And, and that's why I love The UK, because of the variety of all the different people that has been created over thousands of years of the Danelaw, the Danish here, and the Celts there, and the Mercians here, and all these different things, and I guess I love history, but I guess what I really love when I play around with that is people. It's about the people. I don't know which love that would be. That would be Agape probably.

Fiona 30:28

I don't know where that fits, but just, when I was a kid, I was born in Bath, then moved to London, then moved to Staffordshire. And the two things that had different words were bread rolls. Which I can't now actually tell you what they were in each of those places, but the, the more important one was, before you had the word trainers, the things that you wore on your feet for sport, for PE, were called Daps

Richard 30:57

What?

Fiona 30:57

in, um, Bath. Plimsolls in London, and Pumps.

Richard 31:03

Pumps, There were in the Midlands? People. And then there'd be, there'd be, there'd be arguments about what these things are called,

Fiona 31:12

Yeah, because if you,

Richard 31:13

because of the in group, out group

Fiona 31:14

got wrong, yes, you're in trouble.

Richard 31:17

Well, speaking of love, I think we do need to, as always, love them and leave them for another week. We will be back next week with one extra episode. Like we said, we were going to end this season on episode 100, and then come back in a month or so's time with season 2, with some extra different things, slightly different angle. But we're going to do an episode 101, because somebody that we wanted to get on the podcast for weeks and weeks and weeks and he just didn't have the time for it finally said to us the other week. I've actually got time for you next week. I'm like, oh, okay, we'll do an extra one. Why, why not? Especially because it's him. It'd be really, really good. And I might as well mention who it is. It's nothing unusual. It's, a friend of ours Alan Patching, from Queensland on the Gold Coast in Australia. That's why it's been difficult to pin him down because he's 10 or 11 hours different to us. So it's difficult to get hold of him, but yeah he's going to come on next week and have a chat about some elements of what to do in therapy and things, sort of self therapy and things like that, about sort of internal dialogues and how to get a new perspective on things. That'd be really, really good to chat with him about. Right, any comments or anything else before we disappear for another week, Fiona?

Fiona 32:29

Not really, just, I would just encourage people to think about love in their lives and the different types. And, uh, you can always just Google and find words for love in Greek. And you can get those concepts and think about where that's going well and where there might be some gaps of things you can do. But I hope it's just built some understanding.

Richard 32:52

I'm in the mood for love now. That sounds really rude. I'm in the mood for love. Okay, yeah,

Fiona 32:57

I was thinking I was in the mood for dancing. That's a different thing altogether.

Richard 33:03

the Nolans?

Fiona 33:03

Yes, that's the Nolans. What's it? I'm mood for love. That is a song, but I can't it think who it's by.

Richard 33:08

No, I don't know. But I'm in the mood for love, and I think I'm going to talk about it a bit more, because I want to go deeper into this, so I'm going to talk about this on my, Patreon episode, which actually will come out before this then, because I'll record that this afternoon, because I've got some notes here for this episode that I didn't get a chance to talk about

Fiona 33:25

Oh, sorry.

Richard 33:26

alright, it's 40 minutes in, you know, we're not going to add any more in. So I'll talk about it on Patreon, if you're a subscriber on there, go and have a listen. Right. Let's go for another week. We will be back next week. If you need us, you know where we are, everybody. Speak to you then. Ta ra!