Shame

In this week's episode Richard Nicholls and Fiona Biddle explore the complex emotions of guilt and shame.

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Richard 0:39

Happy New Year, everybody! Welcome to the Therapy Natters podcast 2024 edition. It's a lot like the 2023 edition so far, to be honest, but hopefully with better interest rates and lower energy costs. Oh, and fewer wars. That'd be nice, too. Should have led with that, really. Yeah. I'm Richard Nicholls, and alongside Fiona Biddle here, let's see if we can help you improve your own personal 2024, even if we can't change the world. We can maybe help you change your world. I mean, that's the, that's the plan, I suppose. That's what we do this for. That's why we became therapists, isn't it?

Fiona 1:15

Absolutely, it is. We are working to help individuals change their world, their position in the world. Yeah, that's our raison d'etre, I guess, isn't it, really?

Richard 1:28

I think if somebody wants to become a therapist for any other reasons, and I can't think of any other re well, hmm, hmm. There might be some that like the power of being a therapist. They like telling people what to do, so they think that being a therapist would do that. Hopefully training courses wheedle those people out over four years, but they still slip through the net, I guess.

Fiona 1:48

sometimes they do I hope that those people would be, either weedled out or they're going to the, the rubbishy courses, which are quick. I mean, it's definitely a phenomenon in hypnotherapy training. With people perceiving, consciously or unconsciously, perceiving that they would have control over people in the same way that, it gives that impression when you have stage hypnosis. And, yeah, some people do get through. But this is another reason why, when anybody who's listening to this is looking for a therapist, go to somebody who's properly trained, not somebody who just looks good on a website. And if they don't put their qualifications that you can follow through on their website to see what that means, then the fact that they've been in practice 20 years, It doesn't mean anything.

Richard 2:50

hopefully, maybe naively I'm thinking this, those people would change. I'm thinking of myself, that if I, I don't know, all I'm doing is projecting out here, but if that was me at the beginning of my career, I would realise early on, Oh, no, what am I doing? And my values would change.

Fiona 3:09

Yes, I think that, not only do the courses weedle people out, so does actual work. And this is something that has really, I, I mean, I, I can't say why, but it just It seems to be the truth that people who aren't any good at this don't get the clients.

Richard 3:31

yeah, maybe they just give off a vibe just on their website, or the phone calls, or Well, the people don't tend to do that anymore. It used to be the case. I don't even have a landline anymore, but it used to be the case that you'd leave a message for your therapist and they'd call you back and have a conversation on the phone and a little consultation for 10 minutes and then you'd decide whether you were going to take them on as a as a therapist and they would take you on as a client that it was appropriate to work with them. That doesn't tend to happen anymore yet I still have that same phrase I send out to people if they say how do I find a therapist and I show them the links and so on and say you know find five or six and just have a chat with each one on the phone. Some people don't even put the phone numbers on the website anymore. I don't. Have the times changed that much?

Fiona 4:15

I can remember, it doesn't seem very long ago when we would advise therapists, do not use a mobile number because it doesn't show permanence.

Richard 4:23

Yeah.

Fiona 4:25

And of course, now, times, times change. They

Richard 4:30

does. Big businesses will have their mobile number for their WhatsApp messages on, on the side of a billboard or something. It's a huge, long number. It'll change again, there'll be something else in 10 years time, there'll just be a QR code or the equivalent, that you just look at it and some AI camera behind your ear or something will go, Do you want to look at that website? Oh yes please, yeah, I saw you looking, yeah thank you. That's what we've

Fiona 4:58

It will.

Richard 4:59

an AI future. But probably not AI therapists. That's something that is possible, but we do know, for now, that if the client If we're going to call them clients, know that it's an AI, even if it offers exactly the same unconditional positive regard and types in exactly the same way, if they know that it's not a real person, it doesn't have quite the same effect, doesn't have that attachment security. That is part of the Therapeutic Alliance.

Fiona 5:33

I do think that is going to change in the same way that, we didn't trust mobile phone numbers as being, the same as a landline. I mean, it's not the same thing, but it will change. But somebody's got to power the AI anyway, so I'm not going to worry about it.

Richard 5:52

No. No, we'll just work with it. Whatever changes that there are, We'll we'll work with it. And it can only make things better for people. That's the plan, anyway.

Fiona 6:02

Richard, I want to take you back to your introduction. And you said about 2024, oh, and Happy New Year everybody, by the way, I didn't say that. Um, you said, you said, 24 with, lower energy prices, something else, and then fewer wars. And then you said, I should have said that first. Now, how do you feel about the fact that you prioritised yourself, as in lower energy prices, over the world?

Richard 6:31

that's a little selfish, isn't it, really? Because the first thing that popped into my mind was, Can we please have lower interest rates and lower energy costs,

Fiona 6:38

interest rates. Yes, that was the other one.

Richard 6:40

Yeah. That was the first thing that popped into my mind, my wishes for 2024. But then I remembered the wars. And thought, ugh. Yeah, I don't feel particularly guilty about that. Because I understand that I'm human like everybody else. And, well, I've got to a point in life 48 years old. I've shamed myself enough for stuff over the years, for silly mistakes. Not even mistakes, just things, just being me. I've done enough of that and I've had enough therapy to not do that. So I do see my mistakes and I go, oh yeah, that was a mistake, what can I learn from that? Rather than, oh that was a mistake, I'm a piece of crap. Yeah, I don't do that anymore. I hope. But call me out on it if I do. But yeah, there would often be that sense of, I'm a bad person for prioritizing myself. I'm a selfish person. Yeah, clients bring that in a lot.

Fiona 7:40

they do absolutely. And I think you've, you've hit the nail on the head there with getting to know yourself to understand yourself. This is not about you personally, Richard, but generally people, getting to know your own self, and critically understanding your values and what they. mean and where they've come from, then things like feeling guilty for making a mistake, it can be transitory. You can go, oh, yeah, damn. and we can then learn and move on. And it's, it's okay. We aren't

Richard 8:17

I mean, I've spoken, we've spoken about shame a little bit in, because we've done, you know, we're almost 100 episodes, so it's come up. And I did an episode about it on my podcast back in 2019, I think. And somebody messaged me, and let me just reference it, so that I'm, so I can say thank you to her. Hi Richard, would you and Fiona consider doing a Therapy Natters episode on the topic of shame, if you haven't already. Oops, if I've overlooked it and happy to be guided back. Thanks from Karen. Oops, if I've overlooked it. Ah, Karen, that's interesting. As a therapist, even in those few sentences, Oh, I'd dig beneath the You needed to apologize that you might have missed it. As therapists, we do a lot of digging and seeing things that aren't even there. Exaggerating things just for the sake of it. We don't always need to do that. I'm sure Karen's fine.

Fiona 9:06

Absolutely. and Karen, just to say, when Richard and I were discussing whether we were going to talk about shame, I went back and searched through our old transcripts to see whether we'd discussed it. So, if we can't remember, we certainly don't expect our listeners to remember. And we did, episode 47, we did,

Richard 9:29

I'll take your word for that.

Fiona 9:30

yeah, we did discuss something about shame and guilt, but not in any depth, and we felt that it was worth revisiting. In a little bit more depth.

Richard 9:40

Especially as the foundations of it are what cause people a lot of distress. It's that idea that, I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling and thinking this. And maybe things will move, because it's just words, isn't it? It's just language. But we need these words to represent how we're feeling, which is so important for us to identify it all. Guilt, as a word, is really about actions. This is what I have done and I feel guilty about that. And shame is for fundamentally I am a I am flawed. I'm a bad person and that's why I did those things. No matter what those things are. Even if those things are outside of your control anyway. Somebody looked at you funny in the supermarket because their eyes are crossed and they were actually looking at somebody else, who knows. Something in the external world. But it highlights something in us that goes, yeah, they see me for who I know I am. And it's not based on reality, it's just feeling. People often talk about their gut instincts, as if they can trust their gut instincts. I've got this funny feeling, this, you know, my gut instinct tells me this, so it must be true. Go with your gut, go with your gut. We can't always go with our gut, because sometimes there's shame in there that is unfair, unjustified.

Fiona 11:02

Yes, so gut instinct, to me, it's, it's good to pay attention to.

Richard 11:09

It's data. It's information. Whether it's true or not, those feelings, it's information.

Fiona 11:14

Use the information, but don't, don't get blindsided by the gut over everything else. You know, we talk about the head and the heart and if we build the three together, the head, the heart, and the gut feeling, you look at all of them to build a picture. But yet shame can be underlying, anything really. I was reading an article, It's in the European Journal of Psychology, 2018, Reconsidering the Differences Between Shame and Guilt by Maria Micheli and Cristiano Castelfranchi. Oh, great names. and this is a very long article, and it's free, available online. I didn't have to pay for it, which is great. this It shows to me, I mean, there'll be a couple of bits that I'll quote from it but what it's really showing me there is that, there's a lot that is not agreed upon in the academic world about shame and guilt. so even, the way that you've described it of shame is about the self and guilt is about behaviour, Is, is not, is not necessarily agreed upon. I think though it is useful to define it that way. I don't, I don't really care if other people disagree. it's, it's useful. It's a useful way of using the words. somebody had, looked at what people typically define, or situations that cause these feelings. so the most, this is quoting directly from this. Paper. The most frequent antecedents of shame were poor performance, hurting others feelings, failing to meet others or own's expectations, showing a role inappropriate behavior. The most frequent antecedents of guilt were failures at duties, lying, neglecting a dear one, breaking a diet, and cheating. Now, that's really, I find that really interesting because there's, well, in the guilt ones they are all actions, they're all behaviours. Failure at duties, so not doing something you're supposed to do. Lying is obviously a behaviour. Neglecting someone is a behaviour. Breaking a diet, amazing that would be in there, you feel guilty about that. And cheating obviously is a behaviour. The ones in the shame, poor performance. the wording seems strange to me. That would be, I'm, poor performance means I am not good enough.

Richard 13:56

Yes, that's it. I am not good enough. I think shame comes with a lacking. I am lacking in some way. I am ashamed of myself because I am lacking. I am ashamed that I am poor. I am ashamed I don't live up to other people's expectations. I am ashamed that my qualifications aren't good enough. My salary isn't good enough. My Instagram posts aren't good enough. I am not good enough.

Fiona 14:23

Yeah. And, and I should be something else. So, this is where the, to me, the values part really comes in because it's a measurement against your own values. And perhaps we are constantly measuring ourselves against our values. And if we're not meeting them Then we feel shame, and if we're doing something that is contrary to our values, then we feel guilt.

Richard 14:57

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Fiona 14:59

I've got a list

Richard 15:00

Mm hmm. Well, that's quite a list.

Fiona 15:03

It's quite a list. There's about 150 values on this list. I printed this off for our next project.

Richard 15:11

Ah, perfect. Yeah,

Fiona 15:13

little, little teaser.

Richard 15:14

little teaser. into 2024. Yeah.

Fiona 15:16

But yes, there's about 150, because I've definitely had this with clients, and I feel a little bit of it myself, which is why I printed the list, is What are values? What are they? So, just to give you a few, I won't read 150, but we'll start at the beginning, and I'll just pick out a few. Accountability, Altruism, Being the Best, Carefulness, Commitment, Fitness, Preparedness, Security, Self control, Courtesy, Decisiveness, Ingenuity, Spontaneity, Success. devoutness, elegance. elegance. Oh, I definitely don't have that as a value. I'm literally just picking these randomly, or at least I think they're random. Love, tolerance, usefulness. So that's just a few as to, explain what we mean by those. So, let's say I did have, I'm just laughing about it because it's just so, so not. If I did have elegance as, as a value, then, well, I would feel shame because I'm not, nobody describes me as elegant. but it's, it's fine. 'cause I don't feel shame because it doesn't matter to me whether I am or not. whereas another one, yes. So. So that's where shame doesn't come in because it's not part of it. did I say courtesy? Was, was that one I read out? I don't know. But courtesy, that would be a value for me, an important thing to be courteous to people. and if I found that I wasn't being, then I would feel, but that would then be more of a guilt because it would be a behavior, wouldn't it? It would be, well, I was discourteous to that person and then I'd feel guilt.

Richard 17:15

Well, it depends how deep people dig into those values. or maybe problems arise when people don't know all of their values to get to really know themselves well. They don't know themselves. I've met people who come to therapy and they've just been playing a persona all their life to try and fit in or to just to get their needs, whatever those needs are, met. And they're 50 years old and they're only now figuring out who they actually are. Which, when they're looking to their past, they've just been trying to get their needs met, and they might have done so in a very selfish way. They might have been manipulative, they might have been cruel, but they could still have been loving and caring and kind, but also, at times, angry and manipulative. And, if they don't see the rest of themselves And they only shine a light onto the, well, I like feeling powerful. That's a value of mine. Power, success. They only dig into that and they don't see the rest of themselves. Then it will be so easy to be ashamed of who they are, if something backfires. If that, selfishness causes problems.

Fiona 18:21

There's another factor that I think is really important when we think about these values is to look at your interpretation of a particular word. and I know we've discussed this before about the use of language and that We need to really think about what a word means, but let's take success as a value that's on this list. We need to have our own internal definition of success, and then it probably would be a value for everybody. To be successful, if we determine what that means for ourselves, so it doesn't have to mean, having a huge amount of money in the bank, having this property or, that level of status or, whatever the external, world might say success means, It means whatever you want it to mean. And that would apply to most of these things.

Richard 19:15

One of the things that jumped out at me was the word Cheat that people can feel guilty because they cheated and to me the first thing that jumped into my mind is the guilt that people bring into therapy if they've cheated on their partner, for example but if that happens again and again through multiple partners or with the same partner over however many years through the relationship it can become a feeling of This is who I am as a person. Somebody who cheats. Somebody who is selfish. Somebody who is greedy. Somebody who is sneaky. And that deeper, this is who I am as a person. And I hate myself because of it. Wonderful if somebody can bring that into therapy and say, this is who I think of myself as. And I am ashamed about that. So when people say, for example, guilt is good because it's good to feel guilty because it stops you doing bad things that hurt people, so it's good for society, but shame is bad because that's about who you are as a person and you shouldn't feel that. Well maybe there are times when we should feel shame. over our deeper urges that we end up turning into a behavior. We really should, so that we can address it. Because if you don't address it, it never goes away. The urge to do those things never goes away. You might not do it, but the thought will always be there and you'll always hate yourself and that's not good for mental health.

Fiona 20:42

Absolutely. I think both can be useful and both can be hugely detrimental. We do need to recognise that guilt is used as a controlling mechanism by society. I mean, because it's a bloody horrible feeling, isn't it? I mean, feeling guilty is really nasty. so is shame, but there's something about guilt that Yeah, there's, I think usually there'd be more, choice in what happened that caused the guilt. That would be another difference to me. if you're ashamed of something about who you are, I'm not saying you can't change it. You can change most things, but, you can't change everything. So, yeah, perhaps it's why guilt has that particular quality to it. But, you know, the You don't do this because if you do, you will feel guilty is very powerful and, you know, society does need to be controlled. Of course it does. Any society needs to have controls. we can't have anarchy

Richard 21:48

No, and I think in the family system, there can be these, this worry about anarchy, or the, the family equivalent, that some patriarchal or matriarchal character, somebody, is there to make people feel guilty, to keep the system working, and nothing's a problem unless it causes problems, but sometimes that causes problems.

Fiona 22:11

And I'm at the age where a lot of my friends have similar situations to the one I have, which is a dependent parent. and I hear from Some of them how their parents use guilt to get their needs met I'm very lucky in that my father does not do that at all When we discuss it, we discuss the concept of duty for example You know, I am not looking after you out of duty. I'm looking after you because I really rather like you. You, you're a lovely chap. And it's not, but some do.

Richard 22:53

I'll make you some dinner. You taught me how to use a spoon.

Fiona 22:57

Well, I'll make, I'll make you dinner and we'll watch University Challenge and we'll have fun.

Richard 23:01

Yeah.

Fiona 23:02

it's more sort of current, really, than that, but it is definitely a thing that quite a lot of people in that stage do do that, presumably, because They can't see themselves getting their needs met any other way and that then take back to saying about religion using guilt as a mechanism. Perhaps that's the same in a hugely different context that they do not perceive that people will do the right thing unless they are controlled by guilt I mean that's a fascinating discussion, probably not for here ever, but the idea of whether you can be moral without religion, is fascinating because a lot of people will say, no you can't, and then Of course, an awful lot of people say, yes, you can. And you get people going, yes, you can. No, you can't. Yes, you can't.

Richard 23:58

The whole point, I'm a, I think of myself as a humanist. And that is all about trying to make the world a better place through moral actions. We don't need religion to do that. Think for yourself, but act for others. And that, that's in my foundations. And I don't need, I don't need religion to control me in order to do the right thing. But I understand why some people think that people need it because, well, I know what you'll do. Where does that come from? Well, I know what people are like. Ah. And this is why, and this is, it's a huge debate, but it's why there are so many people that don't like the idea that there should be a benefit system. That people who don't have a job should get some money to help them have food and a roof over their head. Well, if you give people benefits, all they will do is just laze around all day and do nothing. No. Cite your sources! Because research shows that's not what people do. The huge, vast majority of people want to be busy, want to have a purpose. And if you can give them a roof over their head and food in their belly and they're safe, and they feel safe, then they've got motivation to shine a light on their values and get those, get those needs met and contribute to society in a way that is helpful, but people just think well, I know what I would do if I didn't have the didn't have a job I'd just sit down and watch telly all day. Oh, would you? Well, that's why you're putting that out there, that's projection. That's a nice chat for people to have next Christmas, for the Christmas dinner. There's always one relative who's racist and bigoted and wants to talk about it. Hopefully nobody had that experience Christmas Day. Bet you did!

Fiona 25:53

I was just, I was just wondering actually, our listeners, we were talking about guilt and shame, whether there were any experiences over the Christmas period, because Christmas does tend to sort of highlight issues, doesn't it? It highlights divisions, it highlights, cracks in relationships. and we can get things wrong, because tensions are high, everybody's super, super busy, super, involved. I mean, not everybody, of course. I do recognize some people have the opposite. but rows can be inflated, and yeah, it's a tricky time.

Richard 26:34

Yeah,

Fiona 26:34

time for an awful lot of people.

Richard 26:36

It is. I can't remember whether we spoke about it in previous episodes. if we didn't, sorry about that. I'm not going to feel guilty or ashamed over

Fiona 26:45

I think we did talk about something, something about Christmas last year. Yeah, we did. We talked about grief. And Christmas, last year.

Richard 26:53

Mmm.

Fiona 26:54

Going back to that article that I mentioned earlier, one of the differences that is discussed in there is whether there needs to be an element of public or private to the emotions, with the predominant view that shame needs to have other people seeing the flaw, but that guilt can be internal. Other people don't see it. the article does, question that, but it's an interesting one to think about. you know, if, if somebody else doesn't see my flaw, you know, based on the values, whatever, is that more shame? It's a tricky one.

Richard 27:39

people can be ashamed of who they are because of the thoughts that they have.

Fiona 27:43

Yes.

Richard 27:45

There might not be any actions at all, and no one sees it, no one knows it. Say, for example, somebody who's been brought up in a family system that discourages homosexuality, for example. Very rigid, absolutely no, I would disown you if you came out. Well, if somebody picks that up from a young age, and you can't keep that secret from children that you've got those attitudes. Because it's just there. In their face, in every slight little comment that says, Oh yeah, I know what my parents values are about that, for example. And if there are any thoughts about being gay, they get squashed, they get buried, because I cannot recognize that part of me. Well, you can't ignore that part either, because if that is who you are, that can't be changed. That isn't like preferring carrots over parsnips. You can learn to like one over the other by Seasoning it, or cooking it slightly differently. You can't do that with who you are! Neurologically, physiologically, biologically, you cannot change who you are, and that needs to be accepted. But if we are ashamed of that part of us And we bury it, it comes to the surface in our dreams, in our thoughts, in our fantasies. You're gonna have them. You cannot get away from it. And that's when people beat themselves with a stick, in one way, shape or form. Whether it's literally hitting themselves, or hurting themselves and damaging themselves in some other sabotaging way, because of those shameful thoughts they have.

Fiona 29:28

There's two things I'd like to, come to from what you've just said there. Firstly, what we're talking about is children taking on values from others that are imposed on them, which, of course, we all do because you've got to start from something. But it's really important to re evaluate, that's in the word, re evaluate your values. I do want to say, though, that In terms of the specific example you used about sexuality? No, it's not always that people know exactly what they are, so they are what they are. we can agree they are what they are, but what they are isn't always immediately apparent. So having some thoughts about, A sexual attraction to your own gender does not necessarily mean you are gay. So, I just wanted to put that out there that it's not all black and white. And so,

Richard 30:34

It's quite normal, what you're saying is, it's quite normal. to find people attractive whether you're gay or straight or what

Fiona 30:41

Yeah. And none of, well this is, this is I think I can speak for both of us. This is our value system that whatever, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. It's okay. but if you do grow up in a, system where the value is, homosexuality is wrong or worse, then it's going to be really difficult to explore what any feelings mean for you. which is part of the problem.

Richard 31:12

Yeah, that's exactly it. Wonderful. Well, I hope we scratched the surface. But had a good look beneath what we've scratched to give people a bit of an insight into what goes on inside of us as humans. And what I would always say to everybody is, if this interests you, do some exploring. Think more, learn more, read more, listen more, but explore more about you. Because it's no coincidence that a lot of the problems that people bring to therapy when they are ashamed of who they are, there's, there's been some troubles in those formative years. There's been some inconsistencies, there's been some, some sort of neglect, maybe. Some problems there when they were becoming themselves, that need re evaluating. Need, need looking at, and learning whether those things were right or fair. And taking steps to recover from that.

Fiona 32:13

Often children will pick up messages about who they should be and who they are, which aren't intended. so That re evaluation process, can be so, so helpful to see, oh, when they were saying this, when they were doing that, it didn't mean this,

Richard 32:32

Hmm.

Fiona 32:33

I don't have to hold onto it any longer. It's okay. Or it might be, well, you know, those teachers at school, they had these values and they were pushing them onto me, but that doesn't work for me anymore. Again, then you don't have to hold onto them. So, that, process of, Re evaluation. it's so crucial.

Richard 32:59

Best disappear for another week, haven't we?

Fiona 33:01

We had, yes,

Richard 33:03

Right, We will be back next week talking about pain with Dr Rebecca Berman. In the meantime, have a lovely week. If you need anything, you know where to find us. See you next time, folks. Bye!