Anxiety & Tricky Conversations

This week we're joined by fellow therapist Eve Stanway who wanted to talk to us about anxiety and how we share our issues with other people.

https://evestanway.co.uk

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Hi there, folks! Welcome to another episode of Therapy Natters! Each week, myself, Richard Nicholls, and fellow psychotherapist Fiona Biddle sit down for a natter about something to do with therapy, whether you need it or not, because even if you don't, there's a fair chance that somebody you know probably does. Welcome to a new week everybody. Hey Fiona. How you doing?

Fiona: 0:35

Good, thank you. And I'd also just like to say, not only need it, but want it, because I think we had this discussion a little bit last week, but it's along the same lines that you don't have to have particular problems in order to have therapy. It can be just ways of looking at the world differently

Richard: 0:53

Yes, some people do want to come to therapy and sit down and go I just want to get to know myself better. I just want to see what makes me tick I just need some guidance because I'm a bit stuck with stuff

Fiona: 1:05

and dealing with normal everyday issues that we probably all face sometime. in our lives,

Richard: 1:11

Yep, the psychology of everyday life at the end of the day because there are some things that are universal, part of being human, part of being a mammal, part of just being, having a heart, having adrenal glands, you just the feedback that our body gives us. Often people come to me I don't know whether this happens with you, and they'll say I don't want to feel anxious. Well, that's dangerous What do you mean? You don't want to feel anxious? What they mean, of course, is that the anxiety they've got is too great It's overwhelming for them. But if there was a pill that said take this pill, you'll never feel anxious again

Fiona: 1:46

they would take it.

Richard: 1:48

Well, there'd be, but there'd be danger.

Fiona: 1:50

Yeah,

Richard: 1:51

I can't remember who it was that said it, but I think There was somebody, what I, I once read who talked about a version of humans that had no anxiety, would just end up in a, a morgue or a prison. We need those signals from our body that helps direct us, but obviously you can get overwhelming, can't it?

Fiona: 2:11

I was discussing that, similar with somebody just yesterday about the need for guilt and shame because if we didn't have any of that. But coincidentally, and of course it's a complete coincidence when we're talking about anxiety, we happen to have a guest with us today who is going to talk to us about feelings of anxiety. We have Eve Stanway with us who is a hypnotherapist and psychotherapist from Chingford. in Essex. more or less. Who is in the process of writing a book about feelings of anxiety. So, welcome Eve, and perhaps you'd like to tell us a little bit about why you've had this idea to write this book and what it's going to be about

Eve: 2:51

Thank you Fiona and thank you ever so much for inviting me on today. It's it's a real joy to talk to you both. So I've been in practice since about 2000 2001 like you Richard and a lot of the work that I've done in my clinic has been Anxiety, people come because they're anxious about stuff ahead of them, or perhaps stuff that's happened to them, and it, therapy is about finding yourself. When people come with anxiety, just like you said earlier, Fiona, anxiety is an essential part of life. My idea in writing this book was to specifically talk about how we talk about our anxiety to family members or people around us. Because it can happen that when we say we're feeling anxious about something, people's reaction is to shut down that anxiety and point out that everything's going to be fine and you don't need to be anxious and you'll do really well and it'll be okay. But actually, when we are anxious about something, I was a bit anxious about coming on here today, and I was able to speak to a friend of mine, who didn't try and tell me not to be anxious, what she did was she allowed me to talk about my anxiety, and she reminded me that, it's alright to be anxious, and she gets anxious, and I do get anxious, but then when I get anxious, I still managed to get through and everything's okay in the end. So my book is specifically about how we can have those conversations with the people around us so that when we're feeling anxious, instead of being shut down, we can communicate what it is we need. For example, if I say I'm anxious going out for a meal in a restaurant with a bunch of people. I can talk about that anxiety and the things that I might need to help and support me without somebody trying to tell me I shouldn't be anxious. If it's a whole group of people that I don't know, I am going to be anxious, or if it's a wedding speech, if I'm going to be talking at a wedding or talking at an event, I'm going to be anxious, but it's how I can speak about it to the people around me. So, please learn about my anxiety is a request to, please can you learn what my anxiety is like for me and the help and support and boying up I need in order to get me through this situation, which is anxious. I do feel anxious about, and it's okay to be anxious because anxiety makes me do better. It's because I care. So that's really where I'm coming from with that, us being able not to fix anxiety or cure anxiety or meditate it away, but actually be able to talk to people quite naturally about it.

Richard: 5:19

I think there's a lot of Magical thinking, wishful thinking, or just plain old burying your head in the sand when somebody comes to us with a problem. Especially if it's somebody we really deeply care about, but it can be quite belittling to say, oh, this is nothing. Don't worry What do you mean? This is nothing. Don't worry. It doesn't feel like nothing I feel sick, and my heart is pounding, and I'm sweating. This isn't nothing. I want it to feel like it's nothing, but it isn't. Oh, it's fine. You'll be fine. It is just wishful thinking, and I do think sometimes people assume, usually wrongly, there's, there might be some truth in it, but... Sometimes people think by trying to support somebody with a problem, they end up supporting the problem and not supporting the person. And if they can support the person, they're actually helping with that problem. But there are, I can understand, there might be some group work, there's some ideas about things like Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous, that sometimes that supports the problem and keeps the problem alive rather than supporting the person that's struggling. And I get that, and yet, I also hear so many stories saying the opposite, that says These things support me. It isn't keeping my problem going. But I get it. I, I totally get it. And if there's people listening that are sitting on the fence about all of this, give it some thought and speak to somebody who has these problems. See what's going on for them.

Fiona: 6:55

And I think it does vary from person to person, situation to situation, because it is possible, I think, to tell me you think, Eve, about the possibility of colluding with somebody in their anxieties, which could, lead to it being exacerbated or continuing longer than is necessary. Just as an example, I'm thinking of an elderly relative who is no longer with us who used to get very anxious. She was in a home and she would get very anxious about comparing herself to the other residents and that her clothes weren't as good as the other residents And I felt it was quite a tricky one to balance between understanding and empathizing with that. anxiety and colluding with it so that she might, if I empathised, I suppose, too much, she might think I agreed with her and therefore that she was right and it mattered that she wasn't dressing as well as the other people sitting, staring at Homes under the hammer at full volume. Which is how it was, sadly.

Eve: 8:09

I think that that's really important. I think that supporting an anxiety would be along the lines of, they're telling you that they're really worried that they're, like the other people in this place. And if we go, yeah, that is really something you might want to be worried about. You're right. You actually are like the people in the other place. You're all old and you're all in this place and you'll probably end up like that. So there's a difference between agreeing with the anxiety and being able to speak to the person about that anxiety being normal, but it being okay for them to have the anxiety. Not validating, that they're feeling scared because they're in that particular situation. You're not validating the content, if you like, of the fear. But you are validating the right for them to, well, it kind of makes sense why you might be scared to be in that situation. What I have noticed and the reason why I was motivated to write this book is because there is this perception that somehow if you're empathetic and nice to somebody who's feeling anxious that you're condoning it, But I think that happens because human beings are social animals and when we see somebody being anxious, it creates anxiety in us. And I think in particular with family members, if you were to be speaking with that relative Fiona, and you were unconsciously or consciously was like, Oh my God, I can't bear we're going to be having this conversation again. I just don't know how to deal with it. I just need them to shut down and be okay. Maybe they can take a tablet. Maybe they need to take a tablet. How's your medication? What's happening is that the person that you were speaking to is being triggered by the content of what's happening and just needs it to shut down. So a couple of years ago, I had a little melanoma and it was on my face. And what I discovered through that process, and I think this was partly what made me think about this, when I would mention that, when people had asked, I had some treatment on my chin, it's all fine now. they would say, what's wrong with your chin? And if I gave them the honest answer, which is, I just had a little melanoma in situ that was taken away and I'm on this treatment, I would end up having to deal with their reaction. Their story. Oh, you know, and whatever had happened to them. And I always thought, if that had been on a part of my body that you couldn't see, I wouldn't have been asked about it. So therefore my sharing of that would have been really different. Now anxiety can be public, if you're having a panic attack, or if you're, expressing that. But also anxiety can be really hidden. when we talk about it, if we end up triggering the person we're speaking about, which can really happen in families, then what are we going to do? We might need to go and speak to a therapist. And that's where I think therapy is really, really important, because a therapist should be someone you can go and talk to about your anxieties and your fears without them getting triggered so that you can work out how to have that conversation without having to deal with their response, if that makes sense.

Fiona: 11:16

Yeah, I was thinking as you were talking that I think probably one of the hardest things in family life, or with friends as well, is having to respond to other people's mental health issues, so I'd include depression in that. Living with somebody with depression is exceptionally difficult. And so getting a hold of The way to respond, which will depend on the person. Going back to the topic of your book, as to please understand my anxiety, and presumably depression as well. Would that fit

Eve: 11:49

yeah, I think the idea, when I had this idea was that it could expand in all different areas. OCD, people have often got a kind of caricatured idea of what anxiety or OCD or even autism or ADHD. You know, they believe they know about it, so they believe that they know how to respond or know that they can't be around somebody who... Has got that. Depression is a really big one. Some people just don't feel like they can be around somebody who's got depression because they feel so helpless. I would say grief is that as well. Loss and bereavement. So, the idea of, this could be a series but the idea is just raising the conversation of how complex it can be to deal with people's reaction when we are talking about what we need sometimes or what we're struggling with. In order for it to be really okay to talk about mental health issues, we need an ability to talk about mental health issues with the people around us without experiencing their perhaps overwhelm, or triggering, or shutdown, or feeling like, I don't want to talk about it because I'm just encouraging you, to be unwell. Which is... It's, it's bizarre cuz if I spoke to somebody about my sprained ankle, I don't think that they would think, well, well I'm just encouraging her to limp for the rest of her life. weird, isn't it,

Fiona: 13:09

It is very, it is very weird. You would still get I think this is pretty universal. You would still get the reaction of, Oh, well I remember when I did. Such and such, which of course is a distraction from discussing the person's pain who raised the issue. So whether that's mental or physical, people will shy away from it by raising other examples. Which just, you know, if you think about it, it's... It's pretty unhelpful, isn't it? I mean, you've got a sprained ankle and I tell you about mine from 20 years ago, how's that gonna be of any use whatsoever? So it's either a distraction or a chance for the person who's saying it. And we all do this. I'm not trying to be any sort of saint here and say, I don't. I certainly do is we get something from telling our own story. we get strokes as we've talked about. In the past, if we, if we have a new,

Richard: 14:01

Yeah.

Fiona: 14:02

An impressive story, you know, your sprained ankle, well that's nothing compared to mine.

Richard: 14:07

But also, in sharing our own stories, what we're also saying at the same time is, I understand you. The other person might not hear that. They might not hear you saying, I understand how you feel. They're just hearing you becoming the centre of attention. Ouch! They just took it back to themselves. I was telling them about my anxiety and they just brought it all back to themselves.

Fiona: 14:30

Yeah, that, that could be definitely part of the intention. But of course, this is something that we talk about as therapists, we don't use self disclosure in that way, because we acknowledge that we haven't experienced the same thing. The context is always going to be different. The personal response is always going to be different. So, another thing I know that you're, doing at the moment, Eve, is training to be a divorce coach. And one of the things with, that, which I'm absolutely certain you are covering, is to not presume that everybody who's going through a divorce is going through the same thing. It's going to be hugely different from person to person. I remember going on a coaching course once where the basis of the coaching was collusion. It was, they actually use this. This is not made up, they said if you've been through a nasty divorce, set up a website called screwthebastards. com to help people to win over and get all the money out of a divorce, because you've been there, you know how to do it. That's basing a practice on a presumption that you know how somebody else is feeling, which of course you don't, I

Eve: 15:44

would say that that's very true and that's not the approach. I mean, I was very selective about where I went for my training, so, one of the things that we would do, and it is, it is a tool that I also write about, is if I say, oh my god, it's tipping down with rain outside, what my tipping down with rain is, bearing in mind I walk dogs every day, I know tipping down with rain. What your version, what springs to mind for you, is going to be different. If I say I was anxious, about whatever it is I might have been anxious about. and you say you're anxious about something, the coaching approach would be, you say you're anxious about that, can you tell me what that anxiety is like for you? Okay, what's it like for you? So, I do relate. My first degree was in philosophy, so I do tend to go there. And one of the things that really interested me and kind of got me into all of this in the first place was how thought and language is connected. So if I say I am anxious about going out for a meal, my anxiety is gonna be how it feels for me, how I communicate that and how I hold that space. When you say, oh Eve, you're brilliant, you don't need to be anxious. It's lovely that you're being encouraging, but what you're not doing is trying to work out what my anxiety is like for me. What is it that I'm anxious about? Could be that I'm anxious about what kind of food is there? Or where I'm going to sit? Or whether or not I'm going to need to drink? Is there going to be an expectation on that? Or will I be able to afford it if we all split the bill? So what my anxiety is for me, and my ability to say, Look, I'm really anxious about going out for this meal. And then someone goes, Oh, you don't need to be anxious. And my ability to say, Well, here's the thing, it'd be really useful if I could just tell you what is making me anxious about this. Or I'm not sure what's making me anxious. Can we just talk it through? Because I think I've been worrying a lot about money recently. And I think maybe I'm worried about how we're going to split the bill at the end of the night. So, it's being able to hold that. it's tools and techniques for how to I need to tell you what it's like for me. And for me as a coach, I'm particularly going, I need you to tell me what your experience is like for you.

Fiona: 18:10

There's an interesting element in there which you, opened up, which is the idea that you might not know what the source of the anxiety is. Because when you started talking and saying, I want to explain to the others why, or to one person, why I'm anxious. Presupposes you know why you're anxious. But, yeah, absolutely, and the place I went to with that, because I've had several clients with this, is they were anxious about where the loo would be, and whether they would be able to get to the loo. Now, if you explain that to a friend who will empathise with it, even if they've never experienced that, anybody can think, oh, yeah, I can see why you might worry about that, then they can help you to be in the suitable place and not trapped in a corner where you can't get out. That's a simple, example of how talking about it can really help. But yeah, getting to the actual, what is the anxiety that's going on there? And that, that people use words differently. In a previous episode I talked about Jack misunderstanding the word scary for several months when he was three. So we won't go there again, but recently I discovered that my father and I use the word worry very differently because he would say I've been worrying about this and I'd be trying to be empathic and not doing terribly well at it because he was worrying about things that you could logically and rationally, there was no need to worry about. But he was still worrying about them, but he wasn't meaning what I was meaning. He was thinking about it, whereas to me, Worry is much more active and much more energised.

Eve: 19:51

I really agree with that and being able to be clear in that, being able to know it's okay to seek clarity. I really need to tell you what my worry is for me, how I'm experiencing it. I think use of language is really important in that. And for coaching, the reason why I like the kind of, you know, I've noticed in your Therapy Natters you've had a few kind of psychotherapists and coaches. And one of the things that you can do with a coach, again, it's all working with the mind, but being able to rehearse that conversation, being able to plan that conversation in your head, being able to plan the difficulties of that conversation. Who am I going to speak to? I'm going to try and speak to Jane about how I feel about going to this restaurant. Right, okay, Jane. How are you going to speak to her? the phone? Or are you going to meet up with her? Yeah? In public? Or in, you know, how will you approach the conversation? And then going through that, which you can do from a coaching point of view, so that you can go through it, see where the pitfalls are, and then have that conversation. And you can't do that with psychotherapy in quite the same way. So it's about this multiplicity of tools I remember when I first did my training hearing about Milton Erickson and having that kind of idea, he had so many different tools in his toolkit and I guess in me I want to kind of help people to have more tools in their toolkit for how to hold this conversation and say, look, I just really need to speak because I don't know why I'm so anxious about going to this thing. I need to explore it.

Richard: 21:29

Now, obviously it's, it's a lot easier to explore that with a therapist. Sometimes people will come to therapy because their symptoms are anxiety. That's it. I am anxious, therefore I am. And they don't know why. People have said to them in the past, Why are you anxious? You've got nothing to be anxious about. And they go, I don't know. I don't know. And... Sometimes it is just that the body has got into a habit, but it's useful to pick that apart and go what is your body telling you? What exactly is your body frightened of? There's always something. It might be that it's 9 out of 10 on the anxious scale, it only deserves to be really 2 or 3. But there's always something there, even if it is just a fear of judgment. I say just, that's actually probably the biggest one. yeah? Often we play around with that in therapy and ba dum, look at the foundations here, it's that. And there isn't always some sort of sensitizing event of being six years old and told off at school because they wrote the letter A backwards or something like that. Sometimes is just a habit. Now, yes, you can explore that with a therapist, and all therapists out there are saying, Yes, please! Everybody needs therapy! But actually, you can explore that with a very... Understanding friend or relative. Doesn't have to be a therapist. But that other person needs to know how to support without belittling. How to validate how you're feeling. And if they don't know, then you as the person with anxiety, I'm sorry to put more pressure on you. You need to teach them what you need. And that's not easy when you have anxiety because it's an anxious thing to do. We're back to that whole foundation always of feel the fear and do it anyway. It's not easy though.

Eve: 23:20

I've got a little slightly different twist on that, which is it's taking back your control. So I might be anxious. There is not really anything that says I can't be in control of my, not my anxiety, I can't make it come down, but I can be in control of how I talk to people about it and who I talk to people and how I ask people to listen. You know, I can actually have some control back. I think Fundamentally, that's what hypnotherapy is about, is about giving people back control. I know people think about hypnosis as being kind of giving control to someone else if they don't understand it. But for me, I've always felt that hypnotherapy done properly is about giving someone agency back with their own mind, giving them back their control. And I think that that very empowering and very important for free will and for us to be able to... I might be not able to control my feelings, but I am in control of myself.

Fiona: 24:14

I think we can control feelings to a degree in that we can look at them and I've noticed, obviously, obviously I do not watch Love Island. But, I just happened to see a bit the other day, where somebody was saying to the other one, Your feelings are valid. And I thought, ooh, I wonder who they've been talking to. Because I don't think that's the sort of phrase that people generally use in... everyday conversations with their friends in their mid twenties. Could be wrong, but I think that's come from somewhere else. But this sort of feels like there's two stages to it. One is, understanding your own feelings, which can be helped considerably by discussing it with somebody else, whether that's a family member, a friend or a therapist. But then there's the choices to what to express and where. And it is perfectly okay, I would say, to decide, no, I'm not going to share this with that person or that person. And as you were discussing that last bit, Eve, I was just going through people in my own social circle and it was sort of making me smile because I was thinking, Oh, I wouldn't dream of mentioning any anxiety to that person or that one. Oh, but that one, yes, I could, I don't, but I could. And that's okay, isn't it? There, there are some people where you might know that it's probably just not worth trying. But as long as you've got somebody. And encouraging that somebody to, let's do this let's create this element to our relationship if it's not there already. That we can talk about these things. And if it's both ways round, that's even better.

Eve: 25:53

One of the ways that I, I kind of express that is through your support team. So it's about thinking who your support team is. And, this particular person I spoke to before we spoke today. We are friends, but we support each other, we are part of each other's support team where we've kind of almost agreed, if you like, that we will talk to each other if we get anxious about something, because she's going through a lot, and I'm going through a lot, and I view it as that support team. As my supervisor, Fiona, you're part of my support team, my therapeutic support team. A coach would be part of my coach team, and my friends are, if that makes sense. And if I'm going to sell my house, my estate agent becomes part of my support team in that moment. But I'm not going to talk to them about my feelings necessarily, but I may well talk to them about my feelings about moving house. If we view it in terms of who we've got round us to support us, And I think we can be really selective and I don't expect everybody to support me with everyone I also want to say I watch Love Island. It's research.

Fiona: 26:55

Yes,

Eve: 26:56

also really useful to watch with my 16 year old because we can open up conversations. That's my reason anyway. I'm sticking to it.

Fiona: 27:04

I view similar reasons. Yes.

Eve: 27:06

how we share ideas and how we talk about things. I do find those, I mean, they're very structured, those programs. I think that there is a lot we can learn by watching good drama as well about how conflict and how conversations are handled. Much of this really is about how we have difficult conversations and how, you know, I think that there's a definite difference between how people intend to be supportive when we talk about our anxiety to them and the impact of the way that they. Cope in the moment if you like and that's an important thing to kind of consider with talking about these things and particularly talking about anxiety. I can talk to you about my anxiety say for going to a restaurant if I was anxious about that, but there's another conversation which is about the impact of that anxiety on me. And the impact of that anxiety on you. Because if you are a family member and I am talking about my anxiety about going out for a meal and there's big birthday party coming up for the family, my anxiety may well impact someone who now thinks, oh God, I'm not gonna be able to go to that party because you know, she's gonna have a meltdown and a panic attack and then we can't go, or we'll have to leave early. So, with anxiety, there is the, feeling of trying to work out what is it that I'm anxious about, and what have I worked through, but the impact, particularly for friends and family members or within spouses, that's one of the reasons why I work within divorce coaching, because relationship breakdown has an extraordinary impact, regardless of what people intend, on everyone. Pets included actually. So being able to have a conversation. I need to talk to you about my anxiety. I've also got to be able to ask you about what the impact is of my anxiety on you. How it's affecting your life or my depression. I, I feel depression. This is the impact on me. You know, I'd like to know what the impact is on you. And I'd like you to be able to talk to me. Openly and in a friendly way, because we live together or whatever it is about what the impact of my anxiety is on you and I want to be able to let you know that I'm doing something about it if I am doing something about it or I'm struggling to do something about it. But being able to open that conversation up at that kind of extra level, if that makes sense, yeah?

Fiona: 29:40

It certainly does, and I think there's... There's two things there. One is that the person who's experiencing the mental health issue might just be completely unaware of the impact that it has anywhere on a continuum of that. Or sometimes people are actually sort of okay with their anxiety and they express it and then it has an impact when there was no need for it to have an impact because the person's okay with it.

Eve: 30:05

Yes.

Fiona: 30:06

So if I said, well, I was, when I was going to Alaska with Jack, I was anxious about whether we'd make our connection back in Seattle cause we had 45 minutes to change planes and I was anxious about that. Well, to me, that's. It's perfectly normal, absolutely fine. Of course I would be, wouldn't I? So that need not have any impact on anybody else because it was a perfectly fine thing to have. And Jack didn't because Jack's Jack. He doesn't do these things. But, if anybody else had an impact from that anxiety, then that would be a problem. So, yeah, it's all balanced, isn't it?

Eve: 30:45

Really is.

Richard: 30:46

if people are listening just as this episode comes out, rather than, three years in the future or whatever, it's the holiday season, it's the summer, it's the time to go away with friends and family, if people are. And over the years, I've had a lot of clients that have talked about the anxiety of going on holiday with people. And they need to talk to them before they go. And say, I have anxiety and I'm scared that I'm going to ruin your holiday if I'm depressed or anxious and can't leave the hotel room. I'm going to spoil it for you. And it's making me more anxious so now I don't want to go. And we need to have those conversations so that our friends or family member or whoever can say, truthfully, Okay, I get it. I'll make sure this doesn't ruin my holiday. Don't worry. If you need to stop in, you stop in. I'll go and do what I do. You get some rest and read or whatever. It's absolutely fine. Just let us know how you're feeling on the day and we'll... Deal with it accordingly, it's absolutely fine. If they don't have that conversation, where that friend, because if they're going on holiday with them, fair chance they're a good friend. If you don't have that conversation, all we do is build it up in our head constantly for the weeks up to it, panicking and panicking more and more, training the brain and body that it's something to fear. Which obviously makes the anxiety ten times worse with each day that goes by. Not good!

Eve: 32:08

Mm.

Richard: 32:08

That needs to be talked about.

Eve: 32:10

Also, sometimes the reality is that you are going on holiday with somebody who is a less good friend, or perhaps a family member, or a friend who's exasperated, that you should be anxious, and that you are in fact going to ruin their holiday, and will berate you for it. Because not all friends are the best friends, if that makes sense. So, I think the complexities around actually recognising and understanding the impact of anxiety on ourselves, the impact on how we self talk and our self esteem, thinking, oh God, nobody wants to talk to me, or nobody's going to want to go out with me because I always end up breaking plans. I just feel that this is a conversational space. It's that it's really nice to be able to kind of get out and talk about because whilst we're going through therapy and I recommend therapy and I recommend getting support for these things, the daily impact on our life for having anxiety or any mental health issue can be enormous and being humans, the easiest thing can be to shut down or avoid or give up. And that's never what you kind of want to happen. So it's good to have a chance to talk about this and get it out. Impact is a massive thing and it's often, I don't intend to let you down. It's just that I've become so overwhelmed that I can't go now, so I'm going to back out.

Richard: 33:34

And these are tricky conversations to have, but it sounds like they're invaluable. They really, really are so

Fiona: 33:42

learn how to do it.

Richard: 33:43

Practice makes perfect.

Eve: 33:45

It does, yeah.

Richard: 33:46

Right then, you beauties? I suppose we'd better leave these lovely listeners to their day and wrap up for another week. Anything to add before we disappear, you two?

Eve: 33:56

I just want to say thanks ever so much for the opportunity to come on and speak with you today. It's really good. It's good to be able to talk about these things and I appreciate your interest and... And inviting me. I really

Richard: 34:06

Oh, it's a pleasure.

Fiona: 34:07

Yeah, thank you very much for coming along, and we look forward to when your book is out. When it is, if we are still nattering we will tell people. We'll, at some point, we might run out of things to natter about, you never know. So...

Eve: 34:21

Never.

Richard: 34:21

Oh, I don't know about that. Right, let's go for now. Have a super duper week, everybody. As always, there's a link in the show notes to a form on my website where you can submit some questions, give us some topic ideas, and if there's anything you want us to talk about, do let us know, and we will speak to you next time. Have a good one. Bye for now!

Fiona: 34:43

Bye.

Eve: 34:43

Bye bye.