Therapy Natters
Therapy Natters
Fertility
This week we have another guest with us, Hypno-Psychotherapist Lauren Jacobs, to talk about fertility.
It was a lovely chat and I hope you find what we say interesting.
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https://www.laurenjacobstherapy.co.uk/
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Hi there, everybody. Welcome to the Therapy Natters podcast. Each week myself, Richard Nicholls, and fellow psychotherapist Fiona Biddle. We're gonna sit down and natter away into a microphone of one sort or another and talk all about why psychological therapies are great. Hey, Fiona, what's going on with you? Are you tickety boo? Oh, a fairly tickety boo, but not quite sure my computer is, and all things tech playing up a bit. So I'm using, proper microphone, have you? I haven't got my, well, I've got my proper microphone. Yes, it's here, Well, that's a good start. plugging it in makes absolutely no difference. So I'm on a strange computer and no mic. So sorry for my sound quality. we love you anyway. I wouldn't worry. Richard. Am I tickety, boo? Yeah, I am. I'm all right. I'm doing all right. I just had my therapy session actually, which is why we're doing this at a slightly different time. A little bit of self-disclosure for you all there. Yeah, I've just had my therapy session, so it was quite nice to see if I was tickety boo. Yeah, I'm mostly tickety boo, but then I just come from a therapy session so I can't be a hundred percent tickety boo, but then is anybody. the seal of approval from your therapist, you, you have to go. And check that you are right. Do you? I am good to go. Yeah, I can be. I can be released onto the public. I'm safe. You're safe for now at least. Hey, we've got another guest, haven't we? Well, we have a visitor again, don't we? Hmm As we've been doing a few times since our 50th episode, we have Lauren Jacobs with us today. Lauren is a hypno psychotherapist who works in southwest London and online. So if what she has to say interests you, you'll be able to find her that way. And Lauren has a particular interest in working with clients for fertility. So that's what we are going to have a little natter about today. Hi Lauren. Hi, Fiona. Hi, Richard. Hello, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. How are you? Super duper always good, or is that, is that just denial? Am I always good? I think I'm a, I'm a, I'm a curious character. I really am. I've been playing this happy character for a long time now, and I'm waiting to crash. I haven't yet, but I do wonder if I'm just gonna fall off the cliff with it one day and go, no, the real me's gonna come out and be angry and grumpy and. And so on. But no, it hasn't happened yet. And it's been, how long have I known you Fiona? Nearly 20, it'll be 20 years cuz it's 2023. It was 2000 and 2003 I think when I, when I first met you. Yeah. 20 years. Yeah. Haven't fell off the cliff yet. It's been completely consistent, the bouncy Richard Yeah, I'm surely, I'm 47 though now. Surely this, this can't carry on. Well, you might turn into grumpy old man, but one of the ones who has fun being grumpy. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I can see that. Lauren, do you have your grumpy moments? Can you be grumpy as well as bouncy? Yeah, most definitely. I'm sure my family would say that at times, but do have my moments, but yeah, I, I try not to be too grumpy, but, you know, sometimes you just need to feel it and let it go. As long as we put it in its proper place, we don't take it into the consulting room exactly. and have our clients pick up on our bad days. And we have a lot of trainee therapists who listen to our show and it's good for them, they say, in the messages to us, to hear the vulnerable side of being a therapist as well. And to hear all the ins and outs of what it's gonna be like when they fully qualify and the different types of clients that they're going to get. And it's been really nice to hear from everybody. So listeners out there new ones, old ones, therapists, clients, and everybody in between, feel free to let us know your thoughts and if you've got any topic ideas, do let us know. Cuz it's a surprise the different things that get brought into the therapy room, isn't it? People don't just come in and say, this is my issue. I have a fear of heights or I have a fear of needles and I need some help with it. Or they have depression and they know I'm, my mood is dreadfully low. There's those, and then sometimes there's the very, very random things. Somebody's got a fear of buttons and they want to talk about it. Somebody's got a sexual fetish and they're wanting to talk about it cause there's nobody that they feel safe enough to explore it with. There's so many different things and people are gonna come to us with varying conditions and problems and frustrations, and one of them, as you've discovered over the years, is people are struggling with their fertility. And that isn't something that when somebody thinks, oh, I'm struggling with, I was gonna say starting a family, but that feels disrespectful to pets and also disrespectful for somebody that is in a family already. You don't have to have children to have a family. Let's put that out there. But most people wouldn't think, oh, I've got some fertility issues and there's things that are going on. I think I'll find myself a counselor or a psychotherapist or a hypnotherapist to talk to. That isn't the first place people go, but should it? it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because very often, I suppose the first thing people think of, if they are starting to realise that it's taking a bit longer than they had expected or had hoped they sort of very much think of the physical first. So, you know, may start to clean up their diet, take supplements um, look at their. Exercise regime, et cetera. But I think people do start to notice when it takes a while that it is becoming a bit of a strain and, and they're starting to feel a bit more stressed, perhaps anxiety's creeping up. And for some people they can also start to feel quite depressed as time goes on as well. So quite often it's those elements that might lead them to start thinking about, you know, perhaps it would be helpful if I could talk to someone about this. I guess one of the biggest issues we find, with fertility, is that it's not like any other issue because it is gonna get more difficult as time goes on. And that is, that isn't, that is undeniable. There's only so many literal good eggs that we've got and every month we are gonna say we. It's not me. I've got no eggs. A woman who's gonna lose an egg every month, there's no denying it. It's no secret that, and it used to be, there used to be that cutoff point of 40, I think, wasn't there. The closer somebody got to 40, the more anxious they ought to be because, well, once you get to 40, that's the point of no return. And that's not necessarily true as we know now, but still it's there in people's minds. Tick Tock, you're in your thirties now. Tick Tock, come on. That pressure. That contributes to the problem, surely. Cuz your body listens to those messages and that stress and says, oh, is there stress in the world? Oh, we don't wanna be trying to reproduce right now. We don't wanna be making babies right now. There's clearly lions and tigers out to get you. So how about we just hang fire for a bit? And you don't wanna hang fire for a bit, you wanna get on with it, but your body won't let you and then you're anxious about being anxious and then you're anxious about not being pregnant. And that stops you being pregnant because you're anxious and then you blame yourself. And what a cycle. I mean, me just going through it now is giving me a headache. What? How do we get outta that spiral? Yeah, I mean that you, you raised a really, really good point there, Richard. It is incredibly stressful. And there are many sort of messages in the media about this cutoff. So you mentioned 40, and that's certainly a milestone in a lot of people's minds that you know, the idea is that pre 40 you can probably get pregnant, but afterwards it's all gonna be different. And of course the reality is that one particular day doesn't make a difference. But fertility does decline over time. And the other cliff edge age, I suppose, that people have heard about is 35. And there was a lot of hoo-ha in the media a few years back, about 35 being the age at which women's fertility falls off a cliff, was the phrase used. So you can imagine the feelings that that engenders in people. And, and you're quite right that, then creates the stress of its own. And women often have a sense that becoming pregnant is gonna happen quite quickly. So, when reality is that for perfectly healthy, fertile women, it can take some months even in your twenties to become pregnant. But if it doesn't happen after a few months, the, the stress certainly starts to rise becomes anxious. Then there's the issues around age. And as time goes on, it can become a bit of a vicious circle as you mentioned, that the more stress you are, the less likely perhaps you, you are to conceive, which then creates more stress. And so it goes on and on and on. And then if you need to have fertility investigations or even treatment that brings a whole load of other stressful moments as well. So, It's often the case that to actually handle that. You do need some specific strategies. Even putting some time in your day just to relax, purposefully relax and switch off from worrying. whether I guess the three of us would naturally turn to hypnosis for that, as, you know, a really excellent way of relaxing. Some people find mindfulness can be very helpful for that as well, but just having I suppose a dedicated time in your day is often a really good first step to take, to start to actually switch off from fight or flight, go into rest and digest mode or feed and breed mode as it sometimes called for quite good reason, You mentioned using hypnosis, learning about meditation, finding ways to de-stress. I think it's worth everybody knowing what works for them, what helps them to relax, because if there there is a rule, it's that there are no rules. You've gotta work out what relaxes you. For somebody guided visualization, somebody talking slowly and quietly guiding them along, that might really annoy them. And I've had, I've had clients that say that about me, that they don't see me as a hypnotherapist. They see me as a psychotherapist and I point them towards my website and say, Hey, go listen to some of these relaxation things. It'll probably help you with some of the stress that's been going on. Train your brain how to focus and relax, be quite good. And the next session they'll say thanks, but no thanks. I tried that hypno thing really wasn't for me and I think, oh, no. Try again. Embrace it and yeah, do, don't just rule something out the first time you do it because there are so many different ways of relaxing. But that's the thing. You gotta work out what's, what's relaxing to you. It might be that my, my hypno voice wasn't relaxing enough. It was too weird and cheesy. And for others they'll just go on to YouTube and listen to somebody on there. And I, it's somebody with a very strong accent that irritates them, that reminds them of a friend that they dislike. Work out what works for you. I think you've made a really important point there about the fact that the hypno voice that, so this is particularly for any trainees or hypnotherapist out there. It, it doesn't have to be something different. It can be normal, but I'm reminded of somebody in the States who talks really, really fast when doing hypnosis. Now, for me, that, no his name's escaped me just for this moment. Oh, okay. but that would annoy me because that would wind me up a bit as in speeding me up. But gets, Don Mottin that's it came back to me. Oh wow, Don Mottin long time, no speak. Yes. But some people love that. And yes, accents and things like that do make a difference, but it's not just about relaxation is it, Lauren? There's other things that can be done using hypnosis to help fertility potentially. that's right, Fiona. So, obviously we can use hypnosis in lots and lots of different ways. if we are working with you know, thought processes people can have quite recurring intrusive thoughts that are quite distressing about, I'll never conceive, this is never gonna work for me. I'll never become a mother. I'm, defective and, and it can range, you know, so we can work with that in hypnosis. We can also do some I guess slightly deeper work around to see if there are any conflicts as to sometimes with women particularly who have a diagnosis of unexplained infertility, where the medical investigations have revealed no known physical causes for their problems with conceiving. We can do some work in hypnosis to see if there are any unconscious factors at play that may be hampering conception. Sometimes there are some deep rooted fears that perhaps clients are not always completely aware of that can in some ways form a block to pregnancy. So, thinking back to some of the work I've done with clients it can be things around fear of childbirth or fear of having twins where there's a lot of twins in the family. And then and somebody's parents have found that difficult to cope with and they've kind of received a message that it would be a disaster if they had twins. And that's quite likely for them. Could be issues around body image and, the way the, body changes during pregnancy, which can be quite a challenge for some women who struggle with body image and can be all sorts of factors at play that are perhaps not consciously known or acknowledged but that we can address in hypnosis and, come to a kind of accommodation where all parts of the client are in alignment. And move things forward there. We can also use it with kind of, visualization techniques to enhance the body's response to things like medication or treatment or indeed, if we rehearse a conception and pregnancy going well in hypnosis, that's probably going to be a lot better for the client than to be continually rehearsing in their imagination that they're not gonna get pregnant. That, that it's gonna, you know, fail again this month. That treatment will fail. I think probably one of the first things we learn you know, as, as hypnotherapist is how the uh, body reacts to what the mind imagines. If you think about the experiment with the lemon, and you know how if you sniff a lemon and imagine cutting it and tasting it, how you know if you are really focusing on that, your mouth's gonna water. In fact, you have a physiological response to something that's purely in the mind. So, you know, how does that play out if month on month you are continually expecting to get your period instead of seeing the two lines on the pregnancy test, and how much different can it be if instead you are visualizing things working well for you. And also there's the, the genuine fears of simply being a parent, whether it's the fears of being a bad parent or just the fears of being a struggling parent. To listen to that story that somebody might have been telling themselves. If somebody created an expectation when they were very young, that parenting is hard and parents are damaging in some way, because they might have had that experience, that needs exploring. We need our unconscious that drives all those instincts and autonomic processes. We need that part of us to be in the present. Not in the past when it made the decision that Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out early while you can and don't have kids yourself. Don't have kids yourself was how the poem ended. I mean, he, he did bless him. He did have kids that poet in the end, he was from Coventry random around, lived around the corner from where I grew up. Rather strangely, if somebody's had that message from a very young age, that parents always make things worse. That needs addressing so that you can trust yourself to be the best you can be. To coin a phrase. And not have to think that you're gonna be perfect. If somebody's got a fear of parenting. Because as we know as therapists, good enough is good enough. Just be good enough. And that applies everywhere, not just for parenting. And actually being too good as a parent would be a bad thing because children have to learn, and I'm sure I've said this on another episode somewhere, but I think it probably bears repeating. If you're too good, then children don't learn that people can be inconsistent. And then there's what's gonna happen when they go to school. What's gonna happen when they go into the workplace. But I was also just thinking about the fact in terms of the fear of, of being a parent, the fear of childbirth. Well, we all get childbirth lessons, don't we? You know, whether it's. Through your local NHS practice or whether you go to N C T classes, whatever, it's an expectation that you will have classes and learn about the process of giving birth. Yeah. There's no classes about being a parent. That's it. You're sent home with this tiny little thing that makes strange noises and does Yeah. Then you dunno what it's asking for to start with and, and, okay, you might get visits from a health visitor and go occasionally to the gp, but you are left alone. And so it's no wonder that it's scary for a lot of people. Probably should be for everybody really, unless they've been around a lot of kids for a lot of time. Yeah, I think a lot of people have apprehensions about it too, but it, and it's natural to have some, as you say. I guess it depends on the scale of that and Richard you're quite right. You know, a lot of people have concerns about am I gonna be a good enough parent? I think particularly if their own experience of parenting when they themselves were children was less than ideal. And of course it's Fiona, you say Nobody has an ideal experience and it wouldn't be good for us I if we did. And sometimes, you know, helping clients to, I suppose, come to that acceptance, that good enough is good enough, can be, can be very key here. And also that, you kind of learn it a bit as a parent, as you go along. That, that, the child grows up over time and you grow with them. So you don't need to know perhaps how best a parent a teenager when the baby's born. At that point, you only need to learn how to, care for the baby and, and your skills kind of grow along with them. And that, you know, it's an iterative process in that sense. I am also quite interested in people's beliefs growing up about childbirth itself because. Probably just to frighten teenage girls into not having sex, into not getting pregnant young. People do create these stories. Deliberately exaggerating the difficulties that can come with pregnancy and childbirth to put the fear of it into them, the, the messages well-intentioned. Were they though? Well, maybe, of course they are. Nobody goes out their way to deliberately make somebody unwell and unhappy. But people do exaggerate. Oh, you, you, you were in labor for eight hours. Well, let me tell you, I was in labor for 12 and you should see the scar on my. Okay. But that's, that's partly a culture thing. Hmm. We have a culture that says the worse your birth the better you are. And so, toddler groups and things like that. Mums will brag how awful their birth was. And if you had a nice, easy one, you're sort of looked down upon as inferior. Which is a very, very strange culture, but it's something that I certainly raise in hypnobirthing when I'm working with somebody for using hypnosis to give birth. Talk about that because hopefully a hypnobirth will be a really pleasant, peaceful process with the result of having a peaceful baby at the end of it. And then they've got nothing to moan about when they go to the toddler group. So they need to be prepared for that, Because if you've got a six year old daughter that's listening to you talk about how awful childbirth was, not only does that make them feel a bit rubbish because once they're old enough to understand, that's my fault. I did that. It was me that did that to my mum. Oh no. How horrible am I that needs adressing. But also they're internalizing that idea of their future. If at a young age you're telling yourself, oh, childbirth is one of the most painful things in the world and it's horrible and it shouldn't be done. Well, that's a strange species. How did we evolve and, and I know we've got bigger heads now than we used to. Oh yeah. We do have bigger heads than we used to. Cause our brains have got bigger. But what that means is the gestation period has got smaller. So babies are more vulnerable than they were 12 million years ago or whatever. That's all. And I know it's not shelling peas. And it is easy for me as a, as a man to say, Childbirth? Piece of cake. Don't worry about it. Because of course it's scary. How could that not be scary? But it's what you do with that fear and what you do with your emotion that drives us. We certainly shouldn't be shaming ourselves in any way, shape or form for what we're going through. And I think it's important that if somebody is struggling and hears us talking about how stress has an impact on fertility, it's not your fault that you are stressed. I remember it was William Davies who came on here last month, and he asks his clients a particular question and I've started doing it as well now cause I think it's wonderful. He says, did you design your brain? No. No I didn't. I then, it's not your fault. Your brain is just doing what brains do. Did you choose your brain? Did you choose your experiences growing up? Did you choose any of this? Cuz anybody that went through exactly what you've gone through would be having exactly the same experience. None of this is your fault. If you're stressed, it's not your fault. If you can't get pregnant. It's not your fault. But it's not easy to believe that is it. And we've gotta challenge those thoughts. No, it isn't easy to believe that. There's often a sense of self blame or shame and that can sometimes take the form of things like regrets of, you know, why didn't we try it before? why did I think it was gonna be easy? it can become very, very, very, very stressful. But you're quite right. It's not, anybody's fault that they can't get pregnant. It's not anybody's fault they find it stressful. And it's incredibly common to find it stressful if you are struggling to conceive. And the research bears that out. Certainly for women who undergo treatment for infertility. So IVF and related treatments and stress and anxiety and depression levels are comparable to people who are suffering from cancer, H I V and heart disease. And the biggest reason for stopping treatment before being able to conceive is not to do with the discomfort of any medical procedures or the money factor because if you go privately, it can be very expensive. The biggest reason why treatment has stopped is because of the stress, because of the psychological and emotional impact of going through that process. And struggling to conceive and, and needing the treatment. so my message to anybody who's struggling is, you are not alone. And it's not your fault and it's really completely understandable given the situation you are in. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's that easy to be as compassionate with ourselves. Is it though? No, no. I was, as you said, that I was just about to come in and say about the self-compassion that William was talking about as well. And one particular form of regret is is women who've had a previous abortion. And that can often trigger guilt that they might not feel that it was wrong to have done that, but they then might think, but if I hadn't, I wouldn't be here. So that's, that's a particular one. You were then talking Lauren about preparation for infertility. what about going through I V F, for example, how can therapy and hypnotherapy help with that journey? Yeah, I mean, it is, it can be a stressful one. it's a journey that's characterized by kind of multiple kind of milestones. and lots of waiting periods, whether that's waiting to begin treatment. Waiting to have a scan, waiting on results of that, waiting for a date when you're gonna trigger your shot waiting for egg collection, waiting to get updates on how many eggs are fertilized and how embryos are, progressing, waiting to know about your transfer. Then there's the, what's called the two week wait, which is the period where you are waiting to, test for pregnancy, which is incredibly stressful. So it is a lot to go through. And of course the key part of sort of therapeutic relationship is to help clients go through that to support them to give them a safe space for talking about how they're feeling to help them with strategies, to sort of managing that way, to managing the anxiety of that and to help them, you know, live. Live during that phase in the way that's gonna best support them emotionally and psychologically, which can vary very much from person to person. But people sometimes find that they lose, contact a bit with friends or, you know, their normal routine. For one reason or, or another. But actually helping clients to make sure that, I suppose set up their daily and weekly routines in a way that supports them, that they're not, you know, they're going to have things in the week that will support their wellbeing. And just sort of tips and tricks to get through it as, as you know, as much as possible. There's that sense. I think sometimes one way of feeling stressed or bit anxious or low in mood, that, that we kind of, kind of naturally seek things out that kind of chime with the mood we're in. Like, so sometimes if we feel sad, we might think to put some sad. Music on. And whereas actually you know, thinking about that and thinking, well, you know, how am I gonna feel better? What can I do? What kind of activities help me to feel nourished and, and better in myself and sort of actively planning that out. We can also with hypnosis work with the sort of various stages of the treatment in a sort of mind body way to help um, you know, body and mind to respond to the treatment and just strategies for staying calm and, relaxed and as, as confident as we can feel. And also I suppose dealing with the, the sort of various worries around the sort of time ticking away perhaps. So there's, there's lots we can, do to help. I guess also, eventually there comes to a point where, As therapists, we need to support people who wanted children and, and can't. It's just not happening. It's, it's so hard as the therapist to be the optimistic realist because on one hand there's a part of me that says Never give up on, on, on the possibility. But there's also the realist part of me that says, at some point you have to accept that this isn't gonna happen. But the, the negative connotations of that acceptance feels almost unethical to, to suggest that to people. But I guess that's, that's the clients choice to make. If they want to come into therapy and say, I need to learn how to accept that this isn't gonna happen. At what point in their treatment, if they're seeing us every two or three weeks for a couple of years, maybe, as they're really, really trying. At what point do we then maybe start, do we suggest maybe we need to learn to accept this? I don't think we do that. I wouldn't. That's gotta come from the client. Everything needs to be client led. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I would never suggest that. And I think people you know, come to that conclusion a a slightly different points, and it should always be, you know, a decision that they come to. And I, think really that's always at the back of clients' minds that at some point it might come to that and, and obviously they're hoping very much that it doesn't. But I think that's, for each individual, I guess, to work out and, and with their other half if they have a partner they're going through this with, to come to that perhaps together as a couple as well. Frustrating though, because we hear so many stories. It's, I mean, it's anecdotal more than anything, but how many times do we hear somebody say, I only got pregnant when I stopped trying. Mm. You keep saying exactly what I was about to say just before I say it Richard today. I was. I was going to say that and if think back to when I was young and number of people I knew who were adopted and then have natural brothers and sisters because it's exactly that when they stopped. But that, that evidence as it were, sort of shows the value of the processes that Lauren's been describing to get to that relaxed point to allow it to happen. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's very much, I think, a state of allowing for the body to do its job and for pregnancy to happen. It's not something you can force. Similar in some ways. I think they're not perhaps exactly the same as when we're trying to sleep and if we can't sleep. And, and, you know, I, I think most people have had that experience at some point in their lives of having trouble sleeping and really trying hard to sleep. And the more you try it harder and harder, the further sleep goes away from you because actually who can sleep when they're really stressed and tense? There is a famous story from probably the most famous hypnotherapist, Milton You naughty lady. I know what you're going to say. But I'm not going to say it. I'm going describe the story. bleep it out. No, I'm not going to say it, but, cause I don't need to say it, but his. Milton Erickson, did I say his name? Milton Erickson. He had a couple who were coming to him because they were not able to conceive, and basically he, he did exactly what we've just been saying and sort of go back to enjoying the activity that leads to the production of a baby and not feel it as a chore. But he did use a particular word that I'm not gonna say. Yeah, a little unethical if you ask me what he did at the time, and I know this was the fifties, sixties, so And do we actually know that he did do it? It might just be a story because, but the, but the premise of just doing that for fun, to take that pressure away. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I did see some stats at some point that seem to show pregnancy is more likely the new partner than familiar one. And, and you know, so that could be something. the spice of life. Yes, perhaps a bit more exciting. There's some variety and of course when you are trying to conceive and, and it's taking a while, it's the, you know, a lot of pressure builds up around that time of the month and which is why, I guess the official recommendation you know, usually is. To is to not to time sex during the, the cycle, but, you know, we've got busy lives and you know, it's not always possible. So there can be a lot riding on that fertile window, which does rather take the enjoyment out of it and the, and the fun and the spontaneity, and then, there there can be problems, you know, with erectile dysfunction at that, point. It's just so much pressure. And people have lost that sense of fun and connection and just intimacy and, you know, it being part of the relationship between the two of you, it just becomes very functional for, for baby making. So, Yeah. yeah. Well thank you very much, Lauren for joining us today here on the Therapy Natters podcast. Is there anything you wanted to add on before we sign off and wave everybody? Goodbye. I, I don't think so, other than to say thank you very much to both of you for inviting me on and, and just ask, I guess, well, perhaps one thing to say is to anyone who is struggling you know, with, with the sort of process of conceiving just to say, you know, there is support out there for you psychologically and emotionally. There are, you know, therapists who specialize in this area who, are used to working with women and men and couples going through it. So, It's always worth, I think if you feel you'd benefit from professional support from making some inquiries and seeking that out, and it can really make a difference to how you get through that time. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you for nattering with us. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it. Thank you for coming on, right. We'll love you and leave you all for another week. As always, there's a link in the episode description where you can go to a website, fill in a form, give us a topic idea. If there's a question you've got, fire away. We'd love to hear from you. Have a super-duper week. If you need anything, you know where we are. See ya. Bye Bye.
