Learned Helplessness & Attribution Theory

In this week's episode of Therapy Natters, psychotherapists Richard Nicholls and Fiona Biddle dive deep into the concept of learned helplessness and attributions. 

They discuss how various facets such as ability, effort, task difficulty and luck contribute to the perception of success or failure in tasks. 

They also highlight how people attribute their failures or shortcomings to different factors, thereby developing patterns of learned helplessness.

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Hello there, listeners old and new. It's time for another episode of Therapy Natters, the podcast where two psychotherapists, Richard Nicholls and Fiona Biddle there, give you a bit of a leg up with your mental health by seeing if you can learn something new, and if it's a side effect, so do us two then everyone's a winner! Hello, Fiona, what have you learned this week?

Fiona: 0:33

Well,

Richard: 0:33

I try to learn something new. I always forget what I learn, but I try to learn something new as much as I can.

Fiona: 0:38

Oh, you forget what you learned. That's a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? Or you forgot that you learned it, or you forgot it having, and you don't know it. Anyway, that doesn't

Richard: 0:49

Are you trying to hypnotise me now? This sounds like a

Fiona: 0:52

It's this confusion, confusion, induction. Yes. Well, I did, I did learn something in the previous episode of this that we recorded just now, from our last guest, I, I learned some things, so that was good.

Richard: 1:05

I've probably got a chip on my shoulder.

Fiona: 1:09

Do you?

Richard: 1:10

don't know where that phrase comes from, and that's I like etymology. That's something I'll try and learn, and then I'll forget. But I want to know everything. When I was a kid, one of my favourite films was Highlander. And, spoiler, in the story of The Highlander, the prize that you get Is being able to pick up all the knowledge and information from everybody else in the world and as a teenager for me I think I was about 13 or 14 when I saw that film. Oh, wow That I wish that was my superpower. I want to learn everything from everybody and know everything and yeah, I Will I'll take that to therapy next time I see my therapist and go I've forgotten that I've got this That my superpower is knowledge. Because I know what my therapist would say. Something along the lines of, And how would you feel if you have all that knowledge? Oh, I'll feel better than everybody else. Ah, okay. You feel as if you're less than. Yes.

Fiona: 2:13

Well, knowledge is power, they say. But, a chip on the shoulder. It comes from practice in New York in the 18 the early 19th century, 18 whatever's, when boys who were wanting to fight, they would put a chip of wood on their shoulder and dare the other one to knock it off.

Richard: 2:39

Mm kay.

Fiona: 2:39

That sounded like it was going to be an urban myth, but there's, there's several references to it, so maybe that is where it comes from. But the important thing is to understand what that phrase means to you when you say it,

Richard: 2:54

mm,

Fiona: 2:54

and to others who you are communicating it to.

Richard: 2:57

it's the meaning behind it.

Fiona: 2:59

Yes, as we have said many times, language is about communication. As people, we, we tend to look for meaning in everything, don't we? So, you know, you

Richard: 3:14

we're meaning machines, yeah.

Fiona: 3:17

you see a pattern in the sky and look for a meaning in that and So, it's just a general human trait to, to look for causality. So, we're looking for the reason and then to interpret that. so that leads me to think about a theory which has a not a terribly helpful title which is attribution theory. Because as I say, you know, we, we look for the reason for everything that we do in life. We've talked before on this about how correlation does not imply causation.

Richard: 3:54

One of my favourite catchphrases, much to my wife's frustration.

Fiona: 3:56

It's really annoying when people use it against you.

Richard: 4:00

my son has done that multiple times.

Fiona: 4:03

We do tend to look for the reason why something happened or didn't happen. So that's where this attribution theory comes in. And the theory is that we tend to, if we're looking at Success or failure. So, undertaking a task and you succeed or you fail in it. So, sport can be a useful one. So, I won a race or I didn't win the race. I won a match, I didn't win the match. We tend to attribute it to either ability, effort, task difficulty or luck. So let's have a, let's have a look at that and take it away from the individual. Let's say it's the England football team, playing Germany.

Richard: 4:49

That always goes well, doesn't it?

Fiona: 4:51

Well, I think you'd probably find it goes well more often than you think it does. But again, we'd need to look at, we need to look at the stats, but that's, that's, that's, what we're doing is, let's say, so as we look at it, we're likely to decide that Whether it's success or failure, it's due to the ability of the team, ours or theirs, so we have a better team than they do, or they have a better team than we do. Effort, we didn't try hard enough. They tried harder than we did. Task difficulty. Well, it's a mountain to climb. We were away. There were all the supporters and it was really horrible weather conditions. Or it was too hot, too cold, too wet, whatever. It was a difficult match. Or luck. Well, I mean, don't we all do that in terms of sporting things? We say, well, they were, they were lucky in that they had this and the VAR and the, the ref was this and, and that person fell over and this luck becomes a big part of it. So those are the criteria that we use to judge. So you can see that in terms of that sort of sporting context, but what we're looking for in terms of the individual is to look for patterns that an individual might be using that are helpful or unhelpful to them.

Richard: 6:22

Yeah. Because if you always put things down to luck then you're going to feel as if you don't have responsibility over your progress. Because you talked about using sport as an example. You can use that same process for finding work, finding a relationship, getting better at learning Welsh on Duolingo. It's not luck oh, I was lucky I remembered that. Well, if you, if you do think that it's always luck that you do well you're less likely to probably put some effort in, to succeed in the thing that you want to succeed in. Because, well, it doesn't matter how much effort I put in, it's just down to luck anyway. And then you're not gonna succeed as well.

Fiona: 7:03

So in any particular circumstance where something is going to lead to success or failure. The key is to look at the dimensions and to be truthful with yourself and honest with yourself about the veracity of those dimensions. So, you're applying for a job. Your ability Is likely to make a difference. Somebody I know who did an internship and then was applying for a job. at a property company and they got all the applicants to do a theoretical redesign of a particular area of London. You know, what would you do? With this area of London if you were given the job. Now, that would be way beyond the level that they were being employed to do, but putting that to the side. That was a test of their ability to think creatively, to plan, to do the things that they were going to need to do in that job. If you're applying for a job when you can't do it, that would be problematic in itself. So ability matters. Effort. will apply to both the process of applying for a job, so if you don't put in the effort to select a range of things to try to do, but also if you do, if,

Richard: 8:32

cover letter, alter your CV a little bit, because you ought to for every job you apply for,

Fiona: 8:37

Yes, so if you don't put the effort in to making your application specific, if you don't put your effort into learning about the company to thinking of some good questions to ask etc, then, that's going to be a factor. The task difficulty, well, the issue here is your perception of it. So, if I was to apply to go and work in MI5 right now, I think that would be a pretty difficult task to do, because I haven't got a clue what that even means. Whereas, if I was to, apply to work in the local food bank, which a friend of mine has just done that wouldn't be a very difficult task. And then luck. We've discussed this before, we've talked about job applications. There is an awful lot of luck in that process. But the thing here is, is to look at all those things and see where you are attributing the success or failure of that process. So, let's say you, you've gone for a job interview, you haven't got it what's the reason that you give yourself as to why you didn't get it? Is it because I'm not good enough, so ability, I didn't try hard enough, effort, it was too difficult, or I was unlucky? And all of those will have an element that comes into play, so it's about seeing where you are on those things. And then looking for patterns within yourself. Do you always attribute something to I didn't try hard enough and is that because you didn't try hard enough or just perhaps that you were always told as a kid should try harder should try harder and therefore you just automatically presume that when something doesn't work out. It's because I didn't try hard enough.

Richard: 10:25

Especially if somebody's got some foundations that are regularly telling them that everything that goes wrong is their fault. For some reason. That's a schema that runs through them and has been there since they were I dunno, five years old and their parents divorced and they were trying to make sense of how that happened and why their life is upside down and when we're little we just don't understand so we think it's our fault. Because children do when things go wrong. They don't know. Because when you're little, we do want to feel as if everything that goes on around us is within our control. That's what helps us feel safe. It's what helps us to explore. It's, it's what being a human is. It's wrong. It's faulty thinking to think that it's because of you that the Sun came up because I was expecting it and it did! Hooray! That's, that's because of me, that is, because I was thinking about the Sun and it came up. Well, if you're thinking that your parents are struggling and they're arguing and it's all your fault because you wish that they weren't and doesn't matter how hard you wish they still argue And then they sit down with you and go so little Johnny Mummy and daddy have got something to say and you go. Oh, this is all my fault because I didn't do my homework, or I didn't eat my peas, or whatever it is. And children will think that. They will think that. I mean, the look on your face there, that's so sad. But I don't know if you've had clients that have been through that. I have, yeah. Children are so dumb, but it's because they're children.

Fiona: 11:54

I think there's an evolutionary process going on here as well in that in the past, when societies were smaller that each individual probably did have more impact on their environment than we do now. Or at least more perceived impact on their environment. There was more that was because of what they did

Richard: 12:15

Mm,

Fiona: 12:16

than there is now. So I've thought about this in terms, let's go back to a football analogy. You know the idea of, well, they scored because I went out of the room.

Richard: 12:26

yeah,

Fiona: 12:27

Yeah? It's only because I went to the loo that Manchester United scored that goal. I think there is, I mean, that's obviously a joke.

Richard: 12:36

Well, how many times do people say, oh, don't say that, you'll tempt fate? I hear that phrase from so many people, and it means that certain subjects are taboo. I mean, it, what's the, what's something ridiculous? Oh, let's say, oh, I hope I don't get cancer. Ugh, what a strange thing to bring into conversation. Well, I'd rather not get cancer if there's a choice. I don't know, most of us will, because we're all living a little bit longer and you bring the word Cancer into the conversation and people shrink and go, Oh, please don't talk about it. Because I associate it with difficulties and pain and grief and ugh, don't even talk about it. You'll tempt fate, bringing it into conversation. That's not how the world works. Unfortunately,

Fiona: 13:23

But lots of

Richard: 13:23

we mean by intention that we put out there.

Fiona: 13:26

lots of people do believe it. So you're talking about superstitions, I mean, and there are still some that I do. Like my mother, I mean, I've never heard this from anywhere else, I don't think, but my mother used to say that you shouldn't tell anybody of a dream you had on a, so a Saturday morning, so a Friday night dream. You mustn't tell it on a Saturday morning, after 12 o'clock it's fine, but before that you can't tell them because it will come true. So I don't. I mean, not that I go around telling people dreams most of the time, anyway, I did tell you a dream the other day, but most of the time I don't. but I do turn it the other way around. If I've had a good dream I will make sure I tell somebody, but it never works. It never comes true if I've told them a good one. But so many of these superstitions, they will have some sort of little basis in fact. I suppose this is a sort of link to a sort of magical thinking, isn't it? The, the way that, that, that people will attribute. And some of that can be a safety mechanism. So the luck thing, you know, if if I lost a tennis match and I blame it on luck, then I don't have to consider what I did. I don't have to think about it. I don't have to think, oh, I didn't try hard enough. I could have done, if I, if I'd done more. practice on my serve. It's a very long time since I played tennis. My serve was spectacularly awful, to the extent that the person I was playing against, didn't have a clue where it was going, so it was actually quite effective. But I didn't have a clue where it was going either. But Yeah, so if I was just, just to forget ability effort and task difficulty and just go with luck, then I've lost an opportunity. But I do think it's important to also not only consider these facts, but consider the reality of the scenario, because any of these things could be just, that is the answer. That is the reason. So if England were playing World Cup match, well they have done, against a little country like San Marino, then if England were to attribute that to the effort they put in,

Richard: 15:41

It's the look of the draw

Fiona: 15:42

it's, well it's, it's the luck of the draw, but it's also its ability, you know, that they are better, and because of the number of people that they're choosing from. So look at the reality, so if I was to play a tennis match and I won because my opponent twisted their ankle and was hobbling for the rest of the match. Not so bad that they had to stop but they couldn't really get to the ball. Well, if I was to attribute that to my ability or the effort that I put in, well, that's, not helpful. So reality is a really important factor in this process of to what do we attribute our success or our failure.

Richard: 16:22

And this is appropriate for all sorts of different things. If somebody attributes why their husband shouts at them all the time. If they attribute that to, well, I've done something wrong, This is because of me. Then they're not going to pick up whether they're in a toxic relationship or not and that the husband is abusive So we need to make sure that people attribute what's going on in their life in the right place Is that, would that be this, would that fit with the same theory? Would that be part of the same thing?

Fiona: 16:56

Maybe not technically, but I don't, that never bothers me. I mean it does work, absolutely does, it does work. It's the reason why, it's, it's looking at the reason why something may or may not happen. so a similar, sort of example is, somebody who thinks that their partner is only with them because of X, Y, or Z. So it may be my partner's only with me because I'm beautiful, I've got lots of money I'm funny whereas the chances are partner's with you because of a whole range of factors, not just one. So that's a sort of limiting process that's, again, it's against the reality of the situation. Although, of course, it could be the other way around. It could be that somebody thinks their partner is with them because they are witty, clever, have money and are beautiful, whereas the only reason that they are with them is because they've got money.

Richard: 17:55

Yeah, yeah, it does happen of course Mm

Fiona: 17:58

whatever, it could, it could be for whatever. So again, it's, it's a question of looking at the big picture and seeing, the reality of it. Made me think then of other people's opinions. We often say, you know, that people shouldn't be judgmental about other people, but getting other people's opinions can be a useful thing if you can handle it. And say, OK, so I'm with this guy or gal. Why do you think they're with me? See what they say.

Richard: 18:28

Yeah,

Fiona: 18:29

But you need to be prepared to just say, no, you're wrong. I'm going with this. Likewise, if you've just won or lost a game of tennis then you can say, why do you think I lost that? Why do you think I won that? Get other people's opinions and use it to, to help you evaluate for yourself. I didn't get that job. You know, they give feedback now, don't they? If you don't get a job, you get feedback as to why you didn't get it. if you're lucky. Or not so lucky.

Richard: 19:00

but If you don't ask for it, you don't get it.

Fiona: 19:02

There's a particular concept, that comes from attribution theory, which is learned helplessness.

Richard: 19:09

Oh, yeah.

Fiona: 19:10

Don't know if we've talked about it before. It's

Richard: 19:12

Really? In nearly a hundred episodes? I'm surprised.

Fiona: 19:16

We may have, we may have, I'm just not sure. I haven't checked.

Richard: 19:22

Even if we have, it's fine to talk about it again, because it's such a common thing.

Fiona: 19:27

it's when a person experiences a sense of failure in such a way that they then decide that there's no point in trying anymore, because they just can't do it. So they have learned to be helpless. in that specific task. I find this absolutely fascinating concept, the one I use, and I don't imagine he would mind me saying it, and even if he does, he doesn't listen, so it's okay. My ex husband had really, really bad experience of learning French at school. There was no encouragement. It was really pressured and the phrase that sticks in my mind, let alone in his, when he was asked to read something out in French class and the teacher then said, And now in French, please Biddle.

Richard: 20:22

mate.

Fiona: 20:23

And so I am pretty sure that this is something that he has not gotten over and, and does not speak French. When I, when I was with him he, he did, he did have little, little attempts to, to get over it, but basically it was no, French and me, we do not get along. I don't do that. So you can see the process in action with that example, but it happens so often. And, to use your wonderful phrase, it's only a problem if it causes a problem. That's not really that much of a problem. You know, he doesn't need to speak French, so it's OK.

Richard: 20:59

Yeah.

Fiona: 21:00

But sometimes it does matter. And I think it's, a question for each individual, so anybody listening to think about where they have learned to be helpless. And it can be in a huge range of dimensions. It can be on activities. So, I heard somebody The other day on I think it was on Sunday brunch, saying I've never cooked a meal. Well, there'll be something behind that.

Richard: 21:26

Yeah.

Fiona: 21:27

You don't, you don't just learn to be helpless without something going on behind it. so it can be activity based, it can be, having learned helplessness about golf. I've tried to hit a ball a couple of times and if it goes backwards, that's progress, you know, it's, it's,

Richard: 21:44

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Fiona: 21:46

but it doesn't matter. It's not something I want to do, so it doesn't matter. But then it can get to all sorts of things like lots of people have learned helplessness around tech. That they can't do X, Y or Z, they can't use their phone, they can't do series link on the TV, they can't do this, that or the other or all of it. But then if you get into a sort of more, the softer sort of side of things, of I don't do feelings. I've made a great big, I've made a great big leap here,

Richard: 22:23

Ha. Ha.

Fiona: 22:25

from, from I can't series link to I don't do feelings, there, there are plenty of people who have learned helplessness around feelings in general or specific ones.

Richard: 22:36

If there's anything that you experience in life or would like to experience and you regularly say to yourself, I just can't. Just check that! Where does that come from? Oh, I just can't. Now, like I say, nothing's a problem unless it causes a problem. And if it's not causing a problem that you can't order a drink in a pub, then it's not a problem. But it might be a problem, because the amount of anxiety that that brings up for doing something relatively simple, that's a problem. And it needs exploring.

Fiona: 23:11

that's, made me think of some of the, the things that we hear from clients of I can't drive on a motorway.

Richard: 23:17

Yes,

Fiona: 23:19

That's, that's one. I can't make a phone call to sort out my broadband.

Richard: 23:25

Well, just, I can't handle confrontation.

Fiona: 23:28

I can't ask for a raise because, dot, dot, dot, but they don't usually get to the because. The learned helplessness is just the I can't. And so what I think we're encouraging is people to look at the, the dot, dot, dot as to what's causing that and to, then evaluate. So if it's, I can't, if I, I can't phone for a taxi, I have to use an app, what, what's behind that? There'll be something behind that.

Richard: 24:00

I ordered a Chinese takeaway the other day. And it was a Tuesday as well, so I was quite lucky to get a Chinese open on a Tuesday. Because traditionally, Chinese takeaways don't open on a Tuesday, that's their day off. That's been, that's the case around China. But this one was open, and it was a Tuesday, it was the other week, Billy was going back to university, he wanted a takeaway before he went back, something special. So lots of nice food for the week before he goes back to uni, and it's nothing but macaroni cheese. And I had to ring them up, like I always do. And go through the same rehearsed phrase that I use with every takeaway service I've ever used, which is, Hello, can I place an order for collection, please? And they go, yes, what would you like? And I tell them what I like. And then they tell me how much it is and my order number and I go, thank you very much. And they go, 15 minutes. Okay, see you in 15 minutes. And I've been using that stock phrase since the first time I picked up a phone and had to order a takeaway. Now, aged 48, that isn't necessarily something to take pride in. Ooh, look at me! I know how to use a phone, you know. But you know what? It does. Maybe I'm a bit weird, but it does. It actually makes me feel quite pleased with myself that that's something I can do.

Fiona: 25:12

If you're, if you're weird, then so am I because I feel a little bit anxious just at the thought of doing that

Richard: 25:18

Ooh. Mm

Fiona: 25:19

I use online now all the time. but I used to phone up and I had a stock phrase as well, but it would probably have been for, could I place an order for delivery, please?

Richard: 25:31

hmm.

Fiona: 25:32

Then it's a question of recognising the difference between I don't like doing it and I can't do it,

Richard: 25:39

Mm hmm.

Fiona: 25:40

as I'm saying this and you, you, you said it as well, I think there'll be lots of people listening who are going, what the hell are they talking about? This is just, what, why on earth are they talking about phoning up for a takeaway? But there will also be a lot of people who are going, oh, yeah. Oh yeah, I know that, I know that. So, it's one where, people are very split, but going back to the, the real thing about learned helplessness is to pull it apart. To have a little look at it, and see where this is coming from. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. But if it does, then see what's going on. I've spoken about my father on this a few times, but at the moment he's getting into a learnt helplessness place about all sorts of things that he doesn't need to. So, the series Link was actually about him. There's recently I'm sure everybody who's listening is aware that Jeopardy has returned with Stephen Fry on ITV at 4 o'clock.

Richard: 26:43

Oh, yes.

Fiona: 26:45

And I thought, I thought that might be a good thing for my father to watch. Because he doesn't watch a lot of TV but, you know, Stephen Fry's a nice chap and I thought it could be good. It didn't record the other day and I said, well have you series linked it? He said no, and then the next time I was around there, he said you said you would series link it for me I said no, I didn't. I didn't say I was series link it. You can series link it for yourself I said it's slightly nicer than that, but only slightly. I said autonomy autonomy And he said, I choose Tonomy, but he did it. He did it for himself. And there's, there's all sorts of things since he had his stroke where he's learned to be helpless. And I choose to select the odd thing that I'm going to challenge him on. To encourage his autonomy and say, you series linked things for 20 years. I'm sure you can work it out. And he did.

Richard: 27:49

it's a bit like Eric Byrne's wooden leg story from the 50s, 60s, I guess, when he was telling those stories, because you don't see, you don't even hear of a wooden leg anymore. You probably didn't back in those days, but still,

Fiona: 28:02

Oh, yeah, you would have. Yes, people after the war with a prosthetic leg would have been a wooden leg. Yeah.

Richard: 28:08

would they? Oh, wow. I'm so young.

Fiona: 28:12

And I'm so old that I remember people with, um, But anyway, so that's beside the point, but go on to Eric Burns. Wooden leg story or his game. It's one of his games, isn't it?

Richard: 28:25

Yeah. Yeah, it's from Games People Play. His quite famous book. And one of the stories, one of these games

Fiona: 28:32

to interrupt. That's the the original book about transactional analysis We've talked about TA quite a lot during our episodes but that's the text from which it starts. But the first half of the book isn't about games. The second half is about games. The first half is about transactions. The second half is about games.

Richard: 28:54

And one of those games is called The Wooden Leg Game. I think he calls it. And it's It's about using excuses. That people use. Whatever your equivalent of the wooden leg is. Well I can't do that. What do you expect of somebody with a wooden leg? I can't climb that hill. What do you expect of somebody with a wooden leg? And your equivalent of that might be Well I can't do that. What do you expect of somebody who didn't get any GCSEs? What do you expect of somebody who's working class? Well I can't do that. What do you expect? I'm just a bloke. Or I'm just a woman. What do you expect? I'm just Dot, dot, dot. And we want to look at those dot, dot, dots. I've had the header on my Websites and on my newsletter list for forever from what I remember, which is I wish I could dot dot dot Because that has been so important for so many clients over the years. That they would sit in front of me and say I wish I could dot dot dot and I want to hear I Want to hear their buts Which is not a phrase you hear every day. What's your but? Listen to your but.

Fiona: 30:07

Oh, that's a great phrase. Listen to your but. Yes. But with one T.

Richard: 30:13

So you say. Yeah, listen to your butt with one T. And what are those excuses? I would do that, but. I would go to the gym every couple of days, but. I would lose weight, but. I would exercise more, but. Whatever the goal that you've got in mind is, and I use fitness there as an example, but it could be about finding work, finding a relationship, learning French. It could be anything. I would do that, but

Fiona: 30:39

Am I right? NLP has a phrase, everything after the but is bullsh*t?

Richard: 30:45

That's familiar. It's very NLP. That sounds very Bandler.

Fiona: 30:49

as you were saying, I was thinking, oh, I use my bad back for that. I would walk up to the race course, but I've got a bad back. I would do this, but I've got a bad back. Yeah. So I recognise that I do use that, but I do have a bad back. Oh, look at the reality of the situation as well. And just going back to my father, his is, I can't do that because I had a stroke. So it's the, he did have a stroke and it has affected him, but it's whether you are using it as a real reason or an excuse. I'm not being critical of him here because he does an awful lot and, you know, he's done really, really well since having his stroke. It's little things, like, I can't do a series link because I had a stroke. Yes, you can. And he did. But it, But it's, it's, it's the, it's the thinking it through.

Richard: 31:51

And I think it's really important that people do think through their excuses. Look for where their wooden legs are, and what they're using, and see if that's holding them back.

Fiona: 32:02

were a couple of things you said when you were giving examples that I just wanted to highlight. One was because I'm a bloke and one was because I'm a woman. There was somebody on the last series of I'm a Celebrity who a couple of times said I'm only a woman. And some people said she was using it as a joke. Well, it didn't feel like a joke to me when I was listening. I could just not have a sense of humour, I don't know. But that really rubbed me up the wrong way. And, you know, it's like, I can't do that task because I'm only a woman. And, yeah, the same, same but differently, of course, with, you know, I can't do that because I'm just a bloke. those aren't, those aren't reasons. If you, if you're a bloke and you say, I can't have a baby because I'm a bloke, well, okay, that's true.

Richard: 32:52

But I can't be a parent because I'm a bloke. No. I can't be caring. I can't be thoughtful. I I can't feel.

Fiona: 33:03

with somebody recently which was, it was, the essence of it was, I can't attach to my child until it can walk and talk because I'm a bloke. Ugh!

Richard: 33:15

Yeah

Fiona: 33:16

But that was, that was their reality. It wasn't a situation where I could, it wasn't a therapy situation where I would really go to town on challenging it. But I could, I could only subtly challenge it with a normal person in a normal context. I, I did. Subtly challenge it.

Richard: 33:33

Good. There are some things you can't just let pass by. I'm not an antagonistic guy, but there are some things you just have to shine a light on and go, hang on.

Fiona: 33:44

I think that doing so with something like that is doing them a favour, but that could be just my arrogance, I don't know, but I felt like it was potentially doing them a favour.

Richard: 33:57

I hope so. Anything to get people thinking alternative ways because nothing's a problem unless it causes a problem, but not being able to bond with your kid? That's, I'm sorry, that's a problem. You, you, you can. And that kid deserves it, and so do you.

Fiona: 34:13

but it will almost certainly come from a fear a fear of, you know, not knowing how to, and therefore saying it's not possible. Therefore the task is too difficult, coming back to attribution and effort won't help. Ability, well, I don't have it, but I shouldn't have it because I'm a bloke. Luck has nothing to do with this one. So it's, it's just that, no, that just doesn't happen.

Richard: 34:35

Mm.

Fiona: 34:35

But I just sort of subtly tried to Suggest. I started, it with, babies are actually quite interesting if you look at them and engage with them, talk to them, and you'll get back right from the beginning.

Richard: 34:52

Oh yeah. Yeah. There are some wonderful videos of very young babies mimicking, copying what you do. It's astonishing. And they're figuring out how they fit in in the world, so help them. Help them. Anyway, Fiona, look at the time. Goodness me. shall we love'em and leave'em for another week? We'll be, we'll be back next week with an episode about religiosity, I think? Or it's about introducing religion into therapy? Yeah, that's next week. Should be really, really interesting. So, have a lovely week, everybody. Links are in the show notes to contact us if you want to get in touch. If you need anything, you know where we are. See you next week, everybody. Bye now!

Fiona: 35:35

Bye.