Attachment

In this episode of Therapy Natters, psychotherapists Richard Nicholls and Fiona Biddle discuss the concept of attachment theory. They explore how our early experiences with caregivers can shape our interactions and reactions as adults, whether it be in friendships, relationships, or even why we follow a football team.

00:00 Introduction
01:50 The Role of Therapists and Client-Centred Therapy
03:14 The Power of Self-Directed Therapy
03:37 The Therapist's Role in Difficult Situations
05:54 Understanding Emotions and Feelings
06:39 Unlabeled Feelings and Childhood Experiences
09:37 Introduction to Attachment Theory
11:38 Exploring the Origins of Attachment Theory
17:03 Understanding Attachment Styles
19:01 Understanding Secure Attachment
19:17 Transition from Secure to Insecure Attachment
21:13 Recognising Insecure Attachment Styles
21:24 Exploring the Three Types of Insecure Attachment
22:39 Impact of Parenting Styles on Attachment
24:13 Understanding the Fearful Avoidant Attachment Style
31:01 Implications of Understanding Your Attachment Style
31:46 The Role of Attachment in Social and Cultural Affiliations
33:14 The Role of Attachment in Relationships
35:56 Reflecting on Personal Attachment Styles
37:06 Closing Thoughts

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Look at that! It's only time for another episode of Therapy Natters! Half an hour of therapy nattering between two psychotherapists, who seem to have way too much stuff going on in their head, and they have a desperate need to dump it onto everybody else. I'm Richard Nicholls, and as always, I have psychotherapist and fellow friend, et cetera, et cetera, Fiona Biddle, along for the ride, and... It's another happy day!

Fiona: 0:37

Hi Richard. Yes, that's a great description, yes. too much stuff in our heads that we want to dump out there on the world. Even if it's just a little bit of the world, it's nice. Yes.

Richard: 0:48

So many times people will say things, and it's lovely that they've got this thing in their head that they'll want to try and change the world somehow. They'll want to make a difference to the world. in all honesty, we can't really set that as a goal. Want to make a difference to the world? How unfair! But to a degree, whatever little we do, we can make a difference to somebody's world. We have listeners. We've got hundreds and hundreds of listeners. So, we are making a difference to some of those people. Some of them might just listen because it's just on in the background. But some are going to be listening because, Wow, this is really helpful stuff on my personal development journey. I've got some problems with my mental health and this really, really helps. We might not realise it, but we are probably making quite a significant difference to somebody's world. Just because we sit down once a week and do this for a couple of hours.

Fiona: 1:40

And we get a lot out of doing that as well, and yeah, I suppose it's about enabling others to make their own changes in the world,

Richard: 1:50

Well, That's what therapy is. isn't it? To a degree, Because if it's not, then it's coaching. If it is all very... I was gonna say therapist directed. But if it's therapist directed, it's not really therapy at all. If it's client centred, person centred, then that's therapy. And that is directed by them. But we do step in sometimes and say, I wonder if you might find not drinking coffee at 11 o'clock at night could be helpful with your sleep issues. So we do give some advice, but we don't go, this is your homework, cut down on the coffee. Or solution focused therapists do, though.

Fiona: 2:29

Well, I would hope that if they're wearing a therapist's hat, they would still be negotiating those things, and I mean, I often say to supervisees, if you've got something you really want to advise a client to do. And sometimes there are really bleeding obvious things that we want to say to the client. If you can get the client to come up with it themselves, which you can often do, By questioning and use of language, then that is so much better than actually suggesting it because, well, for a start, if it goes wrong, they'll blame you. If they've thought of it themselves, you don't get the blame. But that's, that's only if it goes wrong. But generally if, if it's self directed, it's going to be much more powerful. So that's what we try to do. But I know there are times when my patience has, got to the point where I just say it.

Richard: 3:25

yeah, you've got to be congruent. You've got to be you in the therapy room.

Fiona: 3:29

but then that would depend also on what it is. So if it was about drinking coffee at 11 o'clock at night, then that is something where you would. If it was a situation and I know of a therapist who's got a client in this position at the moment, where everything is yelling, leave this relationship. You would never Get so far as to say, well, you should never say never. It would be a long way down the route to get to the point where the therapist says, leave.

Richard: 4:03

damn. I've got goosebumps thinking about having that sort of conversation with the client. Because things would have to be so, so bad in somebody's relationship for us as therapists to go, I genuinely do think your relationship cannot be saved and you need to leave them. Wow,

Fiona: 4:21

Well, it's a domestic violence situation. So, not saying that it's never going to be repairable, but right now it's, doesn't feel safe. But even in that situation, the therapist can get underneath the issue subtly by talking about how safe do you feel right in this moment right now, how safe, and asking questions like that so that the person cannot deny it. Well, they can still deny it, but it's harder to deny in that moment.

Richard: 4:51

it is. And that's why I use a lot of psychoeducation in my sessions, to help people understand. Oh, I'm human, and this is something that humans do. They feel this way when they've had my sort of experiences. Oh, okay, I thought I was just infatuated and in love with this person, and actually they're just familiar. Because they act a lot like my dad did, for example. But I don't say, That sounds a lot like you're just being reminded of your dad. Or do I? Maybe I do. Sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fiona: 5:27

Well, that was the example that Jan gave in our psychoanalytic episode, wasn't it?

Richard: 5:32

it was. Yes, that's exactly what she'd experienced. Because that does happen. Because a lot of the... feelings and thoughts that are just totally unconscious. That's what feelings are. Emotions, I think, to me, are just unconscious thoughts that don't have words. It's the other side of the brain. it's the feelings about all those words.

Fiona: 5:54

do you see the words feelings and emotions as interchangeable?

Richard: 5:59

hmmm... Feelings are very much the physiological response. And emotions? Hmm. Our emotions a more, more psychological version of the feelings in the body? So the body gives feedback, and you go, okay, I know what this, feeling is, so now I know what the emotion is. Okay, so I'm feeling scared, but my emotions are actually impatience, or anger, or belittlement, or whatever. Yeah,

Fiona: 6:32

bit of an interpretation

Richard: 6:35

that's it.

Fiona: 6:35

to get from feeling to emotion. From a very young age, and I do not know what that age was, but a long time ago, I had a feeling on a regular basis that I couldn't explain. And never got validated, never got labelled, and I've never been able to pigeonhole it with a word. I still get it from time to time. And it's an odd situation because I can't really say anymore. Because I've got no words to use for it.

Richard: 7:19

Wow.

Fiona: 7:20

Because when you're children, you express something and it gets reflected back to you with words. And I've told the story, I know I've told the story on here before about Jack and the close shave and thinking that funny meant scared.

Richard: 7:35

Oh yeah,

Fiona: 7:36

that's what happens as children. That you get to be able to pigeonhole and say, Oh right, this is what this feeling is, and it means this. So next time you get it, you know what it is. But I've never had that with this particular feeling.

Richard: 7:55

and you've got no words

Fiona: 7:57

No words.

Richard: 7:58

that feeling is. It's just a feeling. Is it familiar? Does it relate to something you've experienced somewhere else? Sorry to sound like a therapist

Fiona: 8:06

No, it's like, well, I've tried to do things with this, and I've talked to therapists about it, but we've got nowhere to go. The only slight, slight, wording that I can put on it is that at some level, there's, I don't want to be in this position associated with that feeling, but that's not right. It's just the only thing I can get.

Richard: 8:36

That's the closest thing you've

Fiona: 8:37

Yeah. So it's just, it's just an oddity.

Richard: 8:40

trapped or claustrophobia or something, but it's, it's not actually that.

Fiona: 8:44

I do remember a time sitting at the breakfast table trying to explain. we lived in London, so I was less than 10. Between 6 and 10. And trying to explain, I've got this feeling, what is it? And just getting nothing back. So, there we are.

Richard: 9:01

we could spend all, we could spend an entire podcast episode trying to pick that apart and it sounds like you already have tried, over the last 20 years.

Fiona: 9:08

just, yes.

Richard: 9:10

So yeah, humans are very very complicated, aren't they?

Fiona: 9:13

indeed.

Richard: 9:14

And a lot of it goes back to how we felt when we were very little. We just carry those feelings on for decades and decades and decades. And if we don't examine it and go, why do I feel this way? Then it's too easy to accept, well, it's just who I am, it's just who I am and what I do, and not question it. But we absolutely should. And that's why, when you whatsapped me yesterday and said, Oh, what's our topic for tomorrow? Here's a list of things I'd like to talk about at some point. And one of them was attachment theory. And I thought, oh, I like attachment theory. That really floats my boat. I wrote an essay on it for my qualification, I think. Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. I got a good score, actually. It was a good essay. A bit comedic, but you've got to put yourself into your essays, haven't you?

Fiona: 10:04

in our world. You do. Yes. you were, if you were studying various things, you would not, but Yes, in ours, yeah, you put yourself in it. We've mentioned attachment theory at various points, but we've never really got into it, so it did feel like this was a nice time to get into it.

Richard: 10:22

I'm happ y to talk about it, maybe learn more if there's things that are in your head that I've forgotten. Sometimes these episodes for me are a reminder of existing knowledge, stuff I'd learned ten years ago and just forgot. And it's great to chat about these things, to natter,

Fiona: 10:41

To natter, yes. I mean, I don't, I, I doubt that I've got any theory, but I think. What I'm hoping that we'll be able to do is take the theory and run with it and see where it takes us. And I think we've already started that little jog, little warm up whispering to our audience now, we don't plan these episodes. Not really. We have a little, maybe, Two minute discussion, if that, and we might look things up, but anyway. So we don't really plan. But that discussion that we got to about emotions and feelings and the difference between the two and where they come from and so on, and how they get labelled, is groundwork for the idea of attachment theory, because that is the process of little ones from birth. even argue before.

Richard: 11:29

Maybe.

Fiona: 11:30

As to how they find their place in the world in relation to others.

Richard: 11:38

So The idea of attachment theory goes back quite a way, really. But in the, but it's still a modern thing in the big scheme of things. A lot of the Freudian stuff that was the turn of the century, we think, oh, that's, that's kind of old, it's a hundred and something years old. Whereas a lot of attachment theory stuff that came out really after the Second World War, and even, even... Yeah, and even in Mary Ainsworth's research that she was doing into the different styles that people were demonstrating, that was 60s and 70s. It really was. I guess attachment theory as a concept. It's only now that it's really become more mainstream to think and talk about.

Fiona: 12:26

It does make you wonder, well, it makes me wonder sometimes. What did people think about such, such things? you think, this was the 1950s, what did people think when they were bringing up, I don't know how old your grandparents are, but my grandparents were born in the no, sorry, my parents, my parents, not

Richard: 12:49

hmm.

Fiona: 12:49

my, yes, my parents were born in the 1930s, and their parents, so they were born around the turn of the century, so. what were their parents thinking when they were bringing up those children? And, I mean, I could, I could get into a sort of psychoanalytical place with thinking about how that was with my parents, because obviously I know my father well, I knew my mother well, and yeah, I could do some interpretations on that. I don't think this is the place.

Richard: 13:22

no,

Fiona: 13:22

but it's, it's just fascinating to think what were people thinking, then, about

Richard: 13:30

they were thinking that being attached to your parents was a bad idea. There was a belief that if a child is crying, if you left it to cry, then it would become independent, and self soothe, and it would be a happier adult. But we now know that's not true. It is literally the opposite.

Fiona: 13:51

I know when, when

Richard: 13:52

attachment theory is. It's about my needs. I need something. You're a baby. You're days old. You don't know what you need. You're just uncomfortable, so you're crying. But you learn. If no one comes to you when you cry... You learn one of two things. You learn either I can't trust whatever is going on out there, which isn't good when you're very young because there's no such thing as out there. When you're a baby, you are out there. You are the world. The world is you. You don't, you can't separate the two. It's just the world, everything is horrible. If, I guess, if we're a little bit older and we recognize we've got a theory of mind and we recognise that I am me and they are they, we have to find a way of explaining why our needs are not being met. So we go one of two ways. Either everybody else is a piece of crap and can't be trusted, or I'm a piece of crap, and I know my place. And that can lead to different attachment styles. Both of them insecure, but either, barriers are up, I pull back at the slightest rejection, or even when there's any affection or attachment that I'm creating with a friend, or I'm falling in love or whatever, we still... Ah! We still on edge? Because yeah, I just know I can't trust them. Or we become super clingy. Because, well, I'm a piece of crap. So I've got to get my attachment needs met, because we have these needs to attach. And that is ancient. Babies in the womb, you were talking about the womb. They suck their thumb. Because they know. at an instinctive level, that when they're born, they're gonna need to suck on something in order to stay alive. Well, that need to attach to the breast is the same, biologically, neurologically, to attach to anything that we need. Because we need more than just milk. Ancient mammals might not have done, but more recently, in the last few million years, these mammals do. We need more in order to stay safe.

Fiona: 16:03

And actually that's, that's an interesting point. Apes, of which we are one, cuddle when they're feeding. Other animals don't, you know, horses, cows. Elephants, whatever, they're not cuddled whilst they're feeding. I don't know really what that says. I just thought it was quite an interesting thought that came into my head. yes, for, for a baby, the fact that they're cuddled as they're fed obviously nobody remembers it, as we can't remember back that time, but I would hope that anybody could get that feeling of what that must have been like and how lovely it would feel to be fed and cuddled. Which of course then leads to problems of people trying to recreate that by using food as a replacement for love, but we're not talking about that today. Talking about that maybe in a few weeks

Richard: 16:53

Yeah, but we can get attached to anything. Attachment theory explains why we move from one thing to another. So, we might have some element of insecure attachment with our parents, because they were maybe neglectful, but not necessarily neglectful. If anybody listening thinks, yeah, I can be super clingy, or, oh yeah, I have defences and put my barriers up, it doesn't mean that you were neglected, that your parents were bad, it could just mean that they were busy. If you've got three siblings, and traditionally, even nowadays, It's still often the case the dad goes out to work and the mum takes a year off to look after the baby. I know, a generation ago, a lot of mums didn't even work at all. Or if they did, it was part time. I know there are different pockets and different places, but...

Fiona: 17:42

I guess what we're saying is that we don't, we are not looking for blame here. So yes, it could be that parents were too busy. It could be that they didn't know what they were doing. It could be that they were taking bad advice. I mean that four hourly feed thing. I remember my mother saying to me that that's what she was told, but she wouldn't, wouldn't or couldn't do it. So, I say thank you for not following those rules. And there are still people who advocate such practices. So, it's not necessary, it's not a blame, it's not a blame game. It's about finding out where you are now based on where you were and then what you can do about it. So, should we... Explain the four types of attachment.

Richard: 18:29

We may as well give them the labels and names and things like that, to see if anybody recognises themselves in these labels.

Fiona: 18:36

Okay. So, I'll start, because I can start with the easy one. Secure attachment. somebody who has secure attachment style is somebody whose needs were predominantly met. As a child, they felt safe, they felt secure. Now, they won't have been perfect. Nobody's needs, in fact, that wouldn't be a good thing. And I know I've spoken about that before. Parenting should not be perfect. But, generally speaking somebody with Secure Attachment knew that that their needs would, generally speaking, be met and that they were loved. Does that work?

Richard: 19:13

yeah, absolutely. Now, that's, that's how it starts. That's the base. We, we do know that we can become insecurely attached as the years go on, if we have some difficult experiences. If there were any sort of abandonment or rejection experiences, getting dumped, losing our job, even moving house, losing friends, people emigrate, whatever, they can cause us to shift from being a securely attached child to being an insecurely attached teenager, and then possibly then an insecurely attached adult that we carry for the rest of our days, it can happen. It's more likely that if we're going to change our attachment styles, it's going to be... that way than the opposite way around. Often we find that if somebody starts with an insecure attachment style, they don't tend to become securely attached because of experiences, other than psychoeducation like this, and then having therapy and what we call corrective experiences. But they, they need to recognize, oh yeah, I have an insecure attachment style, I want to become more securely attached. Or, actually, here's one. You can be securely attached to your dog, but insecurely attached to everybody else. Don't think that it's, it's across the board.

Fiona: 20:30

But also, it's, as I say so often, I'm sorry for repeating myself, it's a continuum. It's not either securely attached or insecurely attached. So, if you're insecurely... You're probably not going to go to be completely secure, but you can move along that continuum and perhaps that's good enough. So the aim would be to maybe look at experiences that created an insecure attachment whether they were back in childhood or as you're saying Richard, the experience of being dumped or losing your job or whatever. Then as an adult, you can re evaluate and change your place on that continuum. So, the insecure attachment styles then. There's three of them.

Richard: 21:18

Yes, and they've all had different names over the years, depending on different schools and different books.

Fiona: 21:24

The first type of insecure attachment could be labeled as anxious, preoccupied, which is then characterized as having high anxiety and low avoidance.

Richard: 21:34

preoccupied, meaning somebody's preoccupied with the idea of attachment. So they become, they can easily become super clingy, maybe have a lot of rejection sensitivity, that if they don't get a text message back quick enough, it just feels as if they're about to be rejected. And so in order to protect themselves from rejection, they lean further into the relationship, into the attachment.

Fiona: 21:59

Yeah. So the clingy, the leaning in is the low avoidance part of that, but they're very the, But they're highly anxious.

Richard: 22:07

Yeah.

Fiona: 22:07

So the next one is dismissing avoidant, which is low anxiety, high avoidant.

Richard: 22:14

Yes. Now, I'm not quite sure about the low anxiety. Maybe if you were to ask them, I'm not anxious about this,

Fiona: 22:20

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I don't need them.

Richard: 22:24

I don't need them. Because I'm better than them because everybody else is a piece of crap. And that was the feeling that they had as a young child, maybe. And they just carried that further on. I don't need to attach to people. I'm better off on my own. I'm independent. And there was a lot of people like that, because that was, up until the 60s, how people were told to look after their children. Let them cry. Let them cry it out. No! Please don't do that too often. There's a time and a place, and I remember having to do elements of that with... Billy, when he was old enough to know, you know, I probably shouldn't be getting out of bed. It's bedtime. Let's get back in. We go, I love you, Billy, but bye bye. Good night. See you tomorrow.

Fiona: 23:09

children need to learn to self soothe, so that is the other side of it when they're a bit older, because actually I think it's important to say that these theories, the original people, John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, were looking at very young children, up to about 10 months old, so that's what we're talking about in terms of leaving a baby to cry, we're not talking about a three year old who's having a tantrum, no, you, you, You leave the three year old who's having a tantrum until they get out of it.

Richard: 23:39

yeah, because hopefully by then they have a secure attachment to you. And so it's okay. They will revert back to their... to their attachment style, whatever happens to them,

Fiona: 23:50

Yeah. Oh, or three year old, thirteen year old, twenty three year old, thirty three year old, forty three year old, anything.

Richard: 23:56

Yeah, yeah, we just revert back if we're not careful, especially in times of stress. And we just withdraw from people, as opposed to those that lean into people. So, there is a third insecure type,

Fiona: 24:13

In this, way of writing about it, it's fearful avoidant, which is high anxiety, high avoidance.

Richard: 24:21

sometimes called disorganized. A disorganised attachment style. Why we've had all these different names for these same things over the years? Just, we just have. But, what the studies found is that, because that's actually quite a, a more, that's a more

Fiona: 24:35

That's a 1980, 1986 was the year I found for that.

Richard: 24:40

Because when a lot of this research was being done with Mary Ainsworth in the 60s and 70s and so on, they just didn't have the box to put these, this little handful of different character types. It was the ones where well, a little bit of psychological research news and info for you. So, there was a couple of strange experiments that were done that were called The Strange Situation Experiments back in the 60s, where toddlers were just given strange situations that involved their caregiver. So their mum would leave a room and a stranger would walk in and start playing with their toys and things like that. And these scientists just looked through a two way mirror, watching and coding every single bit of behaviour from this toddler. And I think the youngest was maybe six months, maybe nine months, and the oldest was maybe 18 months. So the average, I think, was a year old, something like that. And they just coded everything. And they found that there were some of these toddlers were just, just unusual. They wouldn't behave in any of the expected ways. They might just lie on the floor and stare at the ceiling. Or their mum would walk out and there wasn't any behaviour at all. They'd just... Go inward and behave oddly, or they'd flop on the floor and... Just behave weirdly. And there were so few of them that they didn't know where to put them in these little insecure boxes. So I think they just, I think they put them in the anxious ones and just hoped for the best. And then it was in the 80s where people looked through the data and did it again and went, Now there's something else about these children. What is going on in the way that they think and feel? And a lot of the answers when the children were older was that... Actually, those children, they had quite a difficult time when they were young because their caregivers it seemed, were both a source of love and fear. So they were attached to something and also scared of that something. And we're not built to feel that way about the world and ourselves and our caregivers. And it does have a significant effect. And that is what we would now call, that's a neglectful childhood. Those children tended to have quite a neglectful childhood. And those other ones weren't really neglected. They might have an insecure attachment style, but they weren't necessarily neglected. Which is why, like you were saying earlier, we don't want to say that, Oh yeah, I have an insecure attachment style. My parents must have been awful. No, they probably did the best they could, given the circumstances they had. It's just... Circumstances, it is what it is.

Fiona: 27:22

It is, and it's also, I did read this Earlier in my two minute prep for the session that it's not just parental behavior, there are other factors including genetics. I didn't go down that rabbit hole. But it's obvious that there are other factors such as Well, let's take it back to the hierarchy of needs. if you are, if the lower level needs in the hierarchy are not being met for your caregivers. So they're worried about I don't think we've actually talked about hierarchy needs. Almost everybody knows it anyway. That if they don't have enough food, shelter, warmth, basic needs, then they're not likely to be able to give the higher needs to the babies. So it's not necessarily within the parent's control is I guess what I'm trying to say. again, it's not a blame game.

Richard: 28:16

No, it's really not. But once we've got... The insight into this is, this is who we are and this is what likely happened to me, like you say, we don't remember what was going on for us when we were six months old. All we can do is have a bit of a think and a bit of a guess and go, okay, given what I know about my parents and maybe the way that they were parented and then the way that my grandparents were parented, man hands on misery to man, it deepens like a coastal shelf. Once you, as the old poem goes, won't read it all out, it's got a swear word in it rather amusingly. Another episode! I think I made a Patreon episode about that poem. Shall I read that out? No, I won't read out that poem.

Fiona: 28:57

Who, Who, who's the, who's the poet?

Richard: 29:01

Philip Larkin.

Fiona: 29:02

Oh, right, okay.

Richard: 29:03

This be the verse. You know that poem?

Fiona: 29:07

I know something of the poem, but I don't know it all, but that gives enough for people to Google it, I think.

Richard: 29:14

Yeah. I'll bleep it out. I'll bleep it out. They you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. Etc, etc. Because they do! And they don't mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had and add some extra just for you. They do. Sorry, mum. You did.

Fiona: 29:36

But, I, I would like to say, though, Richard, that that ended at the previous generation, didn't it? Because we haven't bleeped our children up, have we?

Richard: 29:48

Of course we all do. All of us do. Every single one of us. Oh, to a degree,

Fiona: 29:54

no, of course I'm joking. But that it

Richard: 29:58

It's just the degree of it, yeah. Does our child, when they're older, need a year of therapy or twenty years of therapy? They're all going to need some. Because we're humans in the 21st century, with more knowledge and wisdom than we've ever had in a brain that's still just a lump of water, really.

Fiona: 30:17

and if, if it worked the other way that we all learned from our parents' strengths and learn to counteract their weaknesses, we'd all be perfect. And somehow it doesn't work that way round.

Richard: 30:29

It does not work that way, Rand. It really doesn't. So many parents say, I want better for my kids than I had. Well, everybody's been saying that for generations,

Fiona: 30:38

So why is it not perfect by now? Yeah.

Richard: 30:40

Exactly! Because it's not. Because there's so much that goes on. There really is. Everybody just tries their best. And sometimes their best isn't good enough. And sometimes it was good enough, but it still isn't brilliant.

Fiona: 31:00

So

Richard: 31:00

room for improvement.

Fiona: 31:01

what about the impact of realizing or working out your basic attachment style on your current life, presuming that the you I'm referring to is a listener who is an adult. What's what's the impact of knowing this then, Richard?

Richard: 31:21

Once you realise you have an insecure attachment style, and you put the defences up if you have to, or you can be a little bit too clingy and you, you lean into relationships and friendships a bit too much, it might help to explain why you might be attached to something else. that might be unhelpful, like food, we can become attached to that instead, or cigarettes, or football teams, or a particular ideology. Attachment theory explains why, when we had a difficult time figuring out where we fitted in, in our family, we look for somewhere else to fit in. A church, or a particular socio economic pocket, just some sort of cultural pocket. Maybe on social media, like a bridge club, but also like, like the National Front, and UKIP, or the Labour Party, or the Communist Party, or whatever it is that we feel that we need to fit in and belong. It explains why we support a particular football team for what seems like no reason whatsoever, because we're attached. Because we're built to attach. Like, babies, like I was saying, they suck their thumb in the womb because when they come out, they need to have that instinct to attach. And those that didn't have that instinct, they didn't attach. So natural selection means the only ones that survive are the ones that attach. We don't just want food. We also want security, safety. Somebody's going to look after me. And maybe that is about food because our parents are going to feed us. So I better attach to them. And it just carries on for the rest of our days. That where do I feel safe? And I will attach to that. It explains why there are conspiracy theories and cults and things like that and people attached to an idea and can't let it go even though it's clearly wrong

Fiona: 33:14

It also explains to me how it is that some people who've not had good relationships with their parents when they were younger keep trying and trying and trying because they keep trying to create that attachment and deny the fact that it was insecure in the first place and In terms of intimate relationships between two people the combinations, of course, this is Cartesian logic of noughts and ones, nought, nought, one, nought, one, one, one so you've got the combinations of those in terms of the people in a relationship. Ideally.

Richard: 33:58

if two, insecure people are in a relationship

Fiona: 34:01

but it depends upon, depends upon which insecure. If you've got a clingy one and an avoidant one. Oh dear, if you've got two of the disorganized, oh dear,

Richard: 34:12

Oh, God.

Fiona: 34:13

but if you've got a secure and any of the avoidance, then you might be able to work that out because the secure one can model and help the insecure move along that continuum to a place of, actually there are people who I can trust. we see it in therapy, don't we? That the people who come in, who are in relationship with somebody else, both insecure, it can be chaotic.

Richard: 34:44

Yes,

Fiona: 34:45

they're both trying to get their needs met in maladaptive ways.

Richard: 34:48

clients will say, Why did she say that to me? Why did she do that? Once you understand a bit more about attachment theory... You can realise it's not about you, it's about them. And it's easier to not take it so personally if they scream in your face that you're a piece of crap. Because you took two hours to reply to a text message because you were in a work meeting, and you heard it ping but it's inappropriate to look. And when you look, it's got four messages on there. And the last one says, well, screw you then if you're going to ignore me. Forget it. I'm blocking you. What the hell happened here? That happens! I hear those stories in therapy a lot. Really do. And if you can understand what makes your partner tick, as well as what makes you tick, it's easier to know everything's going to be okay. I can make this work.

Fiona: 35:37

There are, I believe, although this is not something I checked that there are Attachment style questionnaires online, I believe. Yes? So, if you're wondering have a Google and try out an online attachment style questionnaire.

Richard: 35:56

The lightbulb might go on for you and you go, That's why I do what I do. Ah, that's why they did what they did. Ah, it really is absolutely invaluable information. It is. And it's something that attachment theory and all of this is something I get quite passionate about, quite interested. You probably noticed quite animated today.

Fiona: 36:19

As if you're not usually, yes. Yeah, I mean, it's such a change from your usual dull monotone. Attitude!

Richard: 36:27

I wouldn't know how to do it.

Fiona: 36:29

But it's degrees, isn't it? It is, it is absolutely fascinating. I love thinking back to these things about childhood experiences and what they mean. You know, I think about myself, of course, we all do. I think about my children, of course, anybody who's a parent does. And then I think ahead to maybe someday I'll get grandchildren. And now that I know this stuff, because I didn't know this stuff when I was... a parent, in early years of parenting. It'll be, be really, really interesting as to watching and participating to a degree,

Richard: 37:05

Right. Well, we've had a really super long episode today. I don't think I'm going to be able to edit all this down to 30 minutes, so I think it's going to be a little bit of a long one today. So. Embrace it. Go and have a bit of a Google about attachment theory. Look up some attachment style questionnaires. See what makes you tick. See if there's something familiar in there about other people in your life. I think once you understand this, you're not going to look at your friends in the same way again. And if you've got any questions about this, or any other topic of course, please do get in touch. Give us a question, give us a topic idea, and each week we'll sit down and we'll natter about it. So, we'll be back next week. And probably with a guest. Who is it? Zayna next week. We're going to chat with Zayna about diversity, how to talk about diversity. That's something that'll be really, really interesting. I'll look forward to recording that and look forward to listening as well. So, have a super week, everybody. Speak to you next time. bye. bye.