Analysis

We have another guest this week, Jan McGregor Hepburn, a psychoanalytic psychotherapist, who joins us to talk about psychoanalysis and its principles. We discuss the differences between various types of therapy, the role of the unconscious mind, and the practice of analysis.

Jan McGregor Hepburn 

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Hello there everyone. How are you all doing? Would you believe it? It's another episode of Therapy Natters for You, again. The podcast series where a couple of psychotherapists get together to try and make sense of being human in this nutty old world. I'm Richard Nicholls, and as always, Fiona Biddle joins me along for the ride as well. Good day Fiona. You well?

Fiona: 0:34

Yes, absolutely fine, thanks. We've actually had a couple of weeks off doing this, so I've missed it, but

Richard: 0:39

Yeah.'cause you were away. I was away and yeah. I feel like there's been a little Therapy Natters hole in my life a couple of weeks,

Fiona: 0:47

Absolutely.

Richard: 0:48

I've lot of, a lot of previous ones to edit. So it's your voice has your, your voice has always been with me.

Fiona: 0:55

Oh, how sweet. How sweet.

Richard: 0:57

So it's guest week.

Fiona: 0:59

It is guest week and we have with us Jan McGregor Hepburn, who is a psychoanalytic psychotherapist based in Northumberland. Jan and I have been working together on the Scoped project, which we won't go into unless it happens to come up, but we've been working on that together since 2016, and it's been great to work with Jan on that. So I thought it would be a good idea to have her along to natter with us Richard, because we've talked about psychoanalysis at various points, but never gone into any depth because to be quite frank, we don't have the depths to go into.

Richard: 1:35

I do not

Fiona: 1:36

No. So we now have somebody who does

Richard: 1:40

Woo-hoo.

Fiona: 1:41

So, hello Jan. be to join us.

Jan: 1:44

and nice to be here.

Richard: 1:46

Because I started in psychotherapy as a hypnotherapist and everything was, quite humanistic but quite solution focused. It was this strange sort of mixture. I've not really given myself a label as to what sort of therapist I am, but as I sit down and think about it over the last couple of years I have done, I think I lean more into the relationship side of what it is to be a therapist, and I'm fascinated with how other types of therapy either do or don't do similar things. And the difference is,'cause clients will say, cause they're just Googled Therapy in their town to see what comes up. And they don't know the difference between a Freudian and psychotherapist and a and a C B T therapist. just don't know.'cause why would they? They've just got anxiety or depression and they want some help. So if you can help us to see some of the differences, we would appreciate it. And as would our listeners.

Jan: 2:44

Okay, well, the difference I suppose for any psychoanalytically informed Approach to therapeutic or counselling treatment is that what, causes us problems and what drives us is what is not known to our conscious minds. So now this isn't, I mean, Fiona and I know about this working together. This isn't news to other kinds of therapists that what what ails us is not normally available to sensible decisions because people will always say, well, I know I should do this, but I haven't, or I can't. So the psychoanalytic approach is about, we have to find out what is driving this, where is it from? So when, obviously it was in invented, In air quotes by Sigmund Freud. well over 100 years ago and since then, there's been a lot written and a lot of clinical practice, although in the whole profession, of psychotherapy and counseling. psychoanalytic practitioners are still quite a small minority. It's a particular way of thinking and a particular approach to the problems of the human condition. Freud had various models of the mind, as his thinking developed. But, the easiest way of thinking about it, it's not, it's not where he ended up exactly Is that, sort of, we're divided horizontally as it were, into our everyday lives and our conscious thinking what is buried underneath in our unconscious. And then what is on the top of it, which we call the superego. And the superego is, all the experiences you've had about being managed and taught morals and your own moral compass, and depending on how your life has gone, whether or not you have a punitive superego or a more benign one, but what we understand is what's driving behavior that is difficult, painful. What causes people to repeat things is not located in either the ego or the superego, It's located in the unconscious and in the id. Freud's, word was better translated. I don't speak German. Apparently. If you read Freud in German, it's much more, exciting. He called it the it, this part of us that is, our most basic Primal experiences and impulses, our earliest experiences and our kind of core narrative and core character. So the psychoanalytic treatment of whatever depths and whatever frequency, psychoanalytically based treatment will always have in mind that what is causing the problem is not within the conscious control of the patient or the client, and they need to find out. Freud said symptoms. Which are, you know, what people come to us with, have meaning and purpose. And my job, or somebody like me's job is to find out what it is. other clinicians, other modalities might, have different ways of helping the patient or the client with the symptoms. That, so they're not necessarily, one is not necessarily, better than the other, overall. But for some people, It's depth is necessary and other people will do really well with some help to manage the, the symptoms. But for us, we have to find out what, what, what's the meaning of the symptom, what is it for and what's driving it. So we often get people who've had other therapies who found it helpful, but they hasn't got to this.

Richard: 6:04

Mm-hmm.

Fiona: 6:05

Actually, there's a very strong parallel with hypnotherapy in that. And the, and know, my my original hypnotherapy training, which was a rubbish course, but I didn't know any better. But it was very, very much based on those principles and using free association within hypnosis to find the cause

Jan: 6:29

with hypnosis and yes, of course. sometimes I might see somebody who I think hypnotherapy would be better for would pass them on because you know, the ways of getting to the unconscious,

Fiona: 6:40

unc. So that is where I was going to next. How do you get to the unconscious?

Jan: 6:47

Well, Freud gave up hypnosis, because he thought that people betray their unconscious conflicts in other ways. So he didn't find that he needed to use hypnosis. Things like slips of the tongue dreams, repeated patterns and centrally, which is why all our practitioners have to have masses and masses and masses of personal therapy. I'm cured, perhaps you can't tell, but I really have had years of analysis, but partly because, you know, we all need help, but partly because the chief instrument that you actually use as a psychologist is yourself and the part of you that resonates with what the patient or the client's bringing you and the reactions it causes in you, and you learn to differentiate between your reaction. Which is about you and a reaction that's engendered in you, which is about them. my senior colleagues in other, modalities you'll do a certain amount of that anyway, but we make it the center, the transference, countertransference matrix is actually where we would normally. Expect to do the work. How the patient experiences me, which isn't about me, will be a bit, but about their expectations, their early experiences, what effect that has has on me all goes on in a kind of subconscious, at least way for the clinician. So, that's how we would unpick it.

Fiona: 8:13

and so all the, the analysis you've had enables you to recognize those reactions, whereas normal people don't recognize reactions even though they're having them.

Jan: 8:23

Well, quite. Why would you, That's part of, I I mean, part of being human. We resonate on each other, don't we? We know all that Now about neuroscience. I'm not going to say any more about neuroscience because that's pretty much all I know.

Richard: 8:35

it, it sounds to me as if that sort of therapy is the, is the meeting of the unconscious. it's, the unconscious in the practitioner and the, and the patient slash client and you've got to listen to your own unconscious while the, and, and and help the patient to listen to theirs. listening to your own and, and, and dealing with the transference and counter transference in your own emotions and feelings. No wonder you need so much therapy,

Jan: 9:00

Oh, right. And that's why it a long, long time to train there's a reason why there aren't, masses and masses of us. one is it takes ages and it's expensive. It's not for everybody. But the other reason is you don't need that many of those kind of practitioners to support and scaffold people who are working in different ways. who use those ideas and know how to think about them without having to really go into, depth. I, supervise people, who are working once a week, who have a psychoanalytic understanding, but they're really good counsellors. so they're not working in The transference counter transference matrix in the way that I would expect to, but I'm able to help them use some of those insights and to pick up on what they're feeling and what the evidence is. because the evidence can never only be your own reaction. The evidence has to be your own reaction. What you know of the patient's history, what you know of the theory and what the patient actually says. otherwise it's called wild analysis. People go riffing on their own ideas about it and it may or may not have anything to do with the patient or the client. I'm not always liked when I do clinical seminars because they go, oh no, she's going to make us tell them, say why we said what we said again, because otherwise, You can get, and it can be helpful, but you can get into a thing where everybody's riffing on their fantasies about this patient and this material, and it may or may not have anything to do with the patient. so you need, Borchardt's construction of knowledge. You need the intuition, how you feel about it, the data, what the patient's actually said, the history, you know, what other people know about it, well, your theory base and what you know about the patient's history. You need all those things to be able to make it potentially useful. But it's, a depth interpretation and by definition, if it's unconscious, the patient's very vulnerable. They can say I don't agree with you. And they might be right, or they might be wrong. It might not be right or it might be wrong. They don't. How would they know? how would we know?

Fiona: 11:09

And that's where the word analysis comes in, isn't it's that it's the interpretation and. mean, it's something that I say to supervisees an awful lot is, you know, go with your intuition, but check it out. And I once witnessed, it was in a training session. I witnessed somebody doing a Jungian analysis session. and I found it very interpretative in that he was saying to the client, well, because you've said such and such, that means This. And it felt, it felt, too quite extreme to me. And the way that you are saying it suggests that that's, that was his way, but not, not, not the way. So would you, would you agree that you are, you are checking out those things with the client? And as you say we, when we do that, we say, I'm just wondering if perhaps maybe

Jan: 12:03

yes.

Fiona: 12:04

And they go, oh, no, no, no, no. And you're thinking, oh yeah, I think absolutely, but, but you just checking it out. Is that, that how you do it?

Jan: 12:11

There's a moment at which you need one straight statement. Because obviously the patient has to see the evidence trail that you see. Otherwise, how are they go? the evidence about psychoanalysis is it takes ages and it costs a fortune, but it lasts forever. That's the ev You know, That's the, that's the long, long, long term research is that people stay in therapy for a long analysis and therapy for a long time, but they don't go, don't, they don't even never need to go back. But on the other hand, there's a moment at which to get through the defenses. That's the, another, you know, one of Freud's, original discoveries that we have, defences against knowing about our innermost selves and our unconscious. You have to say something sharp and clear in one sentence. But there could be a moment at which, surrounding the normal relational discourse, you go for something. You've got to, be, you've got to have done all that work in your head. what's my evidence trail? But you need to go for it.

Fiona: 13:09

give an example?

Jan: 13:10

well, I can think of one that happened this morning. Um, A patient is talking about her relationship with her husband and the difficulties of getting of him to do something. And we were talking about it generally, and then I said, you're trying to make your father behave differently in trying to do this. I didn't, go round it. I didn't ask her about it.

Richard: 13:34

No, I wonder if maybe

Fiona: 13:37

may

Richard: 13:37

are being reminded of your father when you no. it just straight up. I've interpreted this, I've analyzed what you've, you've done, and it's obvious me.

Jan: 13:46

yes,

Richard: 13:46

This is your dad you talking Your unconscious is trying to control your dad.

Fiona: 13:51

How did she respond?

Jan: 13:52

Oh yeah, she's right. Oh, She got it. She got it. I mean, I know obviously, you know your patient well. there's a seminal paper by, Strachey on what's called mutative interpretation, and that's the kind of gold standard. that was not what Strachey would call a fully mutated interpretation. It means an interpretation that's going to make a difference, change something. And it normally includes if I'd gone on with it, I would have included how she is with me. Because she finds it hard to be direct with me. She kind of goes around trying to organize me into being the kind of object that she needs, but that would have just muddied it. So a full psychoanalytic interpretation would include that. but it was just this moment where something needed to shift And I thought she could hear this and it would make sense to her, and it would relieve something, And then you go for it. But normally you, and of course Winnicott said I don't think he said this literally, but the best interpretation is the one where you, construct it very carefully and you deliver it very nicely. And the patient goes, that's not right., it's, this and you think, oh yeah, it is oh yeah,

Fiona: 15:03

But you still got there.

Jan: 15:04

exactly. Well, you've got, it's better, the best interpretations are the ones the patient makes. Now, this patient, the next time this happens, if she tells me at all, Which she probably will. because I'm still central to the process. There comes to be a point where you're no longer essential to the process and the patient's getting ready to leave, she realized she was trying to get, you know, she was in relation to her father and she'd said something different

Richard: 15:27

Ah.

Jan: 15:28

So, yes. So going back to the Jungian well, Freud and Jung fell out. But certainly in the uk Jungian analysis is part of our psychoanalytic home and psychoanalytic hub, so the British psychoanalytic council, we have Jungian analysts and Jungian psychotherapists as well as everybody else because we have pretty much the same theory base. And it would be unusual for any Jungian analyst to be so didactic,

Fiona: 15:56

so is the difference between a Freudian, I dunno if this is stating the obvious or not, is the difference between a Freudian analyst and a Jungian one simply the differences in their theory? So a Freudian one would be using the typical theories that you've already expressed. Defense mechanisms, the theory of mind, drivers et cetera. And a Jungian one would be using uh,

Jan: 16:22

well,

Fiona: 16:23

Think of the theories

Jan: 16:25

or some idea about the collective and

Fiona: 16:27

collective conscious archetypes.

Jan: 16:29

would. That's right. The archetypes, although, in, fact one of the big Jungian, analysts. Associations It's up for re-accreditation. I'm going next week. So I'm reading their theory papers and their clinical papers. There's not really that much in between, in fact. And, Jungian analysts learn a lot of Freudian and other psychoanalytic theory. Less so the other way around, But to the patient I think there would be minor differences because it's how you think about the patient. You wouldn't talk to them about the collective unconscious any more than you'd talk to them about, Their desire to murder their father and marry their mother. You wouldn't put it that way. the patient would then wonder, which one of us is crazy here.

Richard: 17:15

How would a client know that they would be more inclined to succeed in therapy through analysis rather than humanistic relationship? Attachment based

Jan: 17:29

Well, some of it's luck too. You can find a way you fetch up and think the research is all that core outcome measure stuff measured, therapist effect, not a modality effect. So some of it's luck, And lots of people will do fine. With a good therapist of whatever modality, but people find their way to us. either they've had other kinds of treatment and they found it helpful, but it hasn't got to this itch. Or they're, already having the idea that they want to know, they're curious about their own workings and want to know about them rather than they just want rid of the symptom. I wanted to be a shrink when I was 14. I just didn't know what one was if you see what I mean. But I've always been interested in how people work and why they do what they do. Not everybody is, and unless you are, Why would you spend a long time Really looking at depth unless you had to, or it makes sense to you.

Fiona: 18:30

Yeah, And that's something that we've, we've discussed at times what is the core of going for therapy is it to understand yourself, is it to resolve a symptom? And as you so rightly say, it varies from person to person. And I would say also from issue to issue, it could be somebody who's really interested in discovering about themselves might have a, an issue that would be very simple to resolve on a symptom level base. they can do one thing in one way, another thing on another.

Jan: 18:59

Absolutely. And also people might want to, notice they keep repeating patterns or their experience might be that it's their bad luck and the other person. So you've all, everybody's had that friend, haven't they? Where? They're with somebody and you can see it's not working and you see it's not good for them. And then they split up. you think, thank goodness for that. And then they go get together with somebody very, very similar. And you think, no, not this again. called repetition compulsion. What is it for? And once that's worked through, you are free to make different choices.

Richard: 19:30

How often would somebody tend to see an analyst? that, would that be weekly? Would it be multiple times

Jan: 19:38

oh, no, full analysis is five times a week.

Richard: 19:40

Right

Jan: 19:41

It would be very rare to see somebody less than once a week.

Richard: 19:45

Hmm.

Jan: 19:46

my practice varies between one and four. I know it sounds a huge amount, but it becomes part of your life and it's what you do people think. How can you get on with your life? it actually helps you get on with your life.

Richard: 19:59

Mm-hmm. how many times do we say no matter what modality a therapist works in, they, they will say, it's really important that you make time for you. And they're coming to therapy, so they put it in their diary so they know that this important, and then they don't do it anywhere else. The only time they make for themselves is that one hour when they come for therapy. But if they could do that more often, because it's part of the contract, it's part of the therapy that for 45, 50 minutes a day, they go and see their analyst. And that is going to be the time that's for them. That's, that's wonderful. If it suits them, obviously it's not gonna suit everybody. For those that it does though, that sounds really beneficial.

Jan: 20:43

That's our experience. And like I say, it's it's hard to explain because it's, a lot of time and money, but actually it makes your life easier. You get, more done when you're not weighed down by internal conflicts anxieties that are unproductive and unnecessary.

Fiona: 21:02

We all hear of course, of people who go for analysis for years and years and years. What would you say the average length of

Jan: 21:10

and and that's quite

Fiona: 21:11

it is,

Jan: 21:12

Well, it depends again on the person and what the issue is and how quickly they can work. You're not returning somebody to a state of previous health where something's happened to them, something's gone wrong and they need help to go back to a state of health. you're making a new thing. if somebody's spent 40 years getting like they are, It's not going to change in two or three. some people will be in analysis or personal therapy. For years and years and years and years and years and years and years. And you could say, you know, well that's clearly that it doesn't work. Or you could say, well, it depends what it is they're doing. And if they're managing the rest of their lives, for somebody who's emotionally unwell, if their therapy or analysis is keeping the show on the road, keeping them going and helping them manage what otherwise is unmanageable. You would think really a minimum was five years.

Richard: 22:07

It's gonna be different for everybody. It's subjective and it's individual because if you work in a sewer, you're gonna need to shower every single day.

Jan: 22:17

Oh, What a lovely analogy. Well, not lovely, but good.

Richard: 22:21

Yeah. But, but not everybody needs to shower every single day. They can skip a day. It's fine.

Jan: 22:29

that's right. And sometimes, you know, we see people who. Who really you think how are you still walking about with this history? Mind you, we all do that. I'm sure you, will too. And sometimes we see people, we think, well, it's not that bad. but the point that we know about the unconscious is, it has a life of its own. People are only capable of a certain amount of pain. And what causes the pain may be larger or smaller, but if the person is at the peak of pain telling them it could be a lot worse. You could live in Kosovo I mean, they know that. Being in emotional pain, people only feel worse because they know, that they should count their blessings

Richard: 23:15

Uh, the way I look at it, thinking that you shouldn't feel bad because people have it worse, means you shouldn't feel good'cause people have it better. And we wouldn't give that advice to anybody.

Jan: 23:27

No, that's true.

Richard: 23:28

Hmm.

Fiona: 23:29

I think there's a little bit of, holding onto a bit of perspective Required cause I mean I've, I've seen these, I'm sure you both have of people who just have lost all perspective. I think sometimes getting a little bit of it back can be rather a useful thing.

Jan: 23:45

Well, I think yes. I mean, of course. Absolutely. And how you do it may be different, but, but you're absolutely right. Yes. and in a good therapy, people start to uh, right themselves. sometimes then you'd comment. Sounded like you enjoyed that Yes. Well, I guess Yeah, Well, I think that's, and certainly for, you know, somebody in chronic pain who's maybe been, Ill for all of their adult life and can't see any future. Any hope well of course they're not dead. Then you might, point out, you know, was there Anything about that you. enjoyed? I'd, also, you know, we'd be interested in why they're not allowed to enjoy anything. what's the unconscious problem in enjoying something? Because Freud's two principles of mental functioning. the pleasure principle we're supposed to do what makes us happy And the reality principle and the problem is the reality principle interferes with the pleasure principle, in, primal functioning. Because the pleasure principle is I think you'd call it polymorphously, perverse. You know, absolutely anything, anything goes providing it makes you feel nice and it comes under pressure from the reality principle, which is, this isn't gonna go well. This isn't how we live. This isn't how we live as a community. this isn't gonna be possible.

Richard: 25:08

Mm.

Jan: 25:08

but the reality principle is also what supports us.

Fiona: 25:13

So it's balance.

Jan: 25:14

That's a good word. It's no good thinking your life would be better if only you were an astronaut. You're never going to be an astronaut.

Fiona: 25:21

Just before we started recording you mentioned neo freudians.

Jan: 25:25

Oh yes.

Fiona: 25:26

are they? What are neo freudians.

Jan: 25:29

well there, are different groups. The problem is that actually Working as a psychotherapist in any way is a difficult job, isn't it? I'm not saying this is unique to a psychoanalytic way of working. It's very taxing. And a terrible job for punitive superego so that we're always hanging onto things. Which makes us feel we know what we're doing, where a lot of the time you have to be creative flying by the seat of your pants, Hoping what you learned has gone in. So it makes people very rigid sometimes. And, they get into a, sort of silo about one theory base or one group of theories, and they won't go anywhere else. So there are different sorts of, neo freudians. There are people who describe themselves as neo Freudians who are, Really about, what, I would call the British independence developed from Freud's theory, but also taking account of a British way of thinking, which is more pragmatic and also work like Winnicott. You know about the mother and the baby. That's the, that's what we call the British independence and then there are high Kleinians who, allegedly don't really read anything else. But the neo freudians that we have problems with, are the Lacanians. now Lacan was originally a follower of Freud, and a lot of Lacanian theory, is very, psychoanalytically based, but the Lacanian practice is very different. so it doesn't conform to either the British psychoanalytic requirements or the International Psychoanalytic Association requirements. Things like same session length, the ways in which you link up past and present but particularly about variable session length contracts The way they work is very different. Lecan, must have been a very charismatic man. cause Lacanians can't stop trying to Recruit us. So they keep sort of, they call themselves that, that group of neo freudians. And then you discover the trainees are being taught something that, you know, they can't get their head round. and that it's very different from what they're expected to be able to learn. Although having said that, of course, there's lots that's interesting about Lacan particularly his, his interest in language and his way of thinking about the language people use. So it's, about, it's about practice, not about, not about theory,

Fiona: 27:56

it's interesting to hear about the differences. What about Klein? That's Melanie Klein. I've got very basic knowledge of some of her ideas. interesting to have a female, theorist.

Jan: 28:06

Yes. Well, exactly. And again, she gets polemicised that Melanie Cline didn't believe, that the relationship with the mother or the mother person was central. It's not really true. What she was interested in was very, very basic, primal, fantasies, unconscious fantasies. How the, how the baby grows into being a bigger baby. She kind of almost lost interest by the time they got to nine months in terms of her theory of development. The Caricature is the Kleinian is really interested only in internal conflicts. The part of you, that wants to devour. Eat up everything. The part of you that feels concern that when you eat up in the fantasy you know, devouring fantasies, all those she thought all these, primal fantasies cause massive anxiety. And that, if they are analysed, the anxiety retreats, which we all know is true to at least to some degree, but that, that, was her, that was her particular contribution. But the high Kleinian, that's what they would more major on rather than being focused on the intersubjective or the relational aspects. She's famous for saying things like uh, she had a supervisee who was feeling confusion in the room, so he made a, an interpretation that the patient was confused. She was very fierce. No dear. She said, you are confused. Now A different approach would be, well, let's have a think about this. The, total, you know, another theorist, Betty Jones, the total situation would be, if you're feeling confusion, it will be coming from somewhere. Is it coming from you Only? That's why I've all this analysis, probably not. It'll be, it'll be something to do with what's going on and you can investigate it. So, I mean, obviously that was a supervisor who went away wincing. She perhaps knew him quite well, knew it was his confusion. but her way of working from what you can read of her cases was much more about what is the meaning of this anxiety and tracking it back in theory. to these primal conflicts of very, very early infancy

Richard: 30:29

very very early

Jan: 30:31

Oh yes,

Richard: 30:32

it's, no secret that those first nine months are vitally important to how we feel that we fit in in the world, but it makes sense. Then when you go through the history books that when John Bowlby was putting forward his attachment theory stuff that, because I think John was a supervisee of Melanie

Jan: 30:48

I think he was, yeah.

Richard: 30:51

And she went, Nope. Not having anything to do with this. This is nothing to do with with psychology at all. This just... Huh, really, where am I gonna go with my theory? not here. I think he went to the biologists

Jan: 31:04

well, it is true that, um, That in the 70s attachment theory was part of psychoanalytic canon, and it's not really now, and that's a loss. I don't think it was just Melanie Klein's fault. You can only get your head around a certain amount of stuff at once. But but that is right that she Really felt what was missing was this theory of very Early mind and her findings are absolutely borne out by what we know about infant research in the last 20 years. Babies, at one day old are reactive, they have an inner life and you can you can see it. You can, And how they withdraw their eye contact. I mean, I suppose anybody who's been a baby or had one probably knew that. But actually that is what's borne out by infant research.

Fiona: 31:52

Interesting. Not everybody does do it. I mean, it's still fairly common to hear somebody say, oh, babies aren't interesting. Wait till they're toddlers. Then they get

Jan: 32:02

Oh, I know.

Fiona: 32:03

Absolute nonsense babies absolutely fascinating from the get

Jan: 32:07

the get go. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Abs that, that's right. Absolutely. Yes. And well, that's what I did my research on. We do for training psychotherapy, you have to do an infant observation. So you go every week and observe an ordinary baby in an ordinary family. Preferably from just, before they're born for a year. It's

Richard: 32:27

Oh,

Jan: 32:28

brilliant. So that's what, I, I did right when

Richard: 32:31

I've got goosebumps. amount information, the data you're gonna get there, everybody did that. The comparisons you can make, the information, you can learn, the correlations, you can pick up that, that is makes it obvious that that helps.

Jan: 32:47

yes. Well,

Richard: 32:48

leave that baby to cry and you walk away, it's going to develop anxiety issues.

Jan: 32:54

Mm, Yeah.

Richard: 32:55

it A hug. I'm being a bit too simplistic there babies need is a hug, but

Jan: 33:00

no, it's not all need but Absolutely. Yes. I mean, we do use it because it's so helpful for training, but actually what I want to, what it's like to be observed and it is all those things you're saying. The baby has an inner life And Melanie Klein never said it didn't matter. She just said she wasn't doing, you know, that it wasn't part of what she thought psychoanalysis ought to be, how that's managed. What Winnicot called a facilitating environment. I don't think they got on that well. High Kleinians didn't used to read Winnicot I'm sure that's, not true now, but I

Richard: 33:34

Oh

Fiona: 33:34

sounds like not many people got on with Melanie Klein.

Jan: 33:37

don't know. I think she had a really difficult, hard life.

Richard: 33:43

Mm.

Jan: 33:43

and a refugee. I don't suppose it makes you a laugh a minute, does it?

Richard: 33:47

No, and I suppose being in the profession she was in, which was so male dominated, for her to rise above that she needed

Jan: 33:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Richard: 33:57

a persona says, I know my stuff.

Jan: 34:01

Yeah. actually,

Richard: 34:01

maybe became quite arrogant. I, I

Jan: 34:04

yeah, I don't know. Well, also she was in opposition to Anna Freud. who has a much more developmental perspective on working with children and had her father's, legacy to defend. Well, and they had, they had, these things called the controversial discussions at the institute psychoanalysis, where the Kleinians and the Anna Freudians tried to, you know, really tried to talk it out. And that Did you know, I mean,'cause obviously. It's how many angels can dance on a pinhead in many ways. there's, you know, the Venn diagram of kleinian child analysis and then the Freudian psychoanalysis. It's, you know, this big overlap.

Fiona: 34:41

when are we talking? When would those conversations have been?

Jan: 34:45

Oh, now you're asking,

Fiona: 34:47

wondered if there were any recordings.

Jan: 34:49

Ooh no. Don't think so.

Fiona: 34:52

That would be good wouldn't it?

Richard: 34:54

What a dinner party that would have be to get those Hmm.

Jan: 34:58

Yes. Yeah.

Richard: 35:00

Well, I suppose we need to wrap up for another week. a fascinating subject. Thank you

Jan: 35:06

Oh, said to Fiona I thought I would enjoy it, and I really have,

Richard: 35:10

Yeah. been wonderful to talk to you. Where if people wanted to find out more about you and some of the ideas that you talk about, where could they find you?

Jan: 35:20

well, just Google, me, Dr. Jan McGregor Hepburn. And honestly, there's pages of stuff appears. I don't know half of what's on, there. But to find out more about psychoanalysis, the, British Psychoanalytic Council has a Website and there's a whole section for the public which explains psychoanalysis and the different sorts of psychoanalytic therapies. And the theory base and the evidence. There's quite a lot on there about, The research that's been done over what's now over a hundred, systematic research has been done for the last 50 years. So that to get a general view, that's where you would go. And if you want to find out more about me or get in touch with me you can just Google me, Dr. Jan McGregor Hepburn, and I seem to be the only one with that particular name,

Richard: 36:05

Well, I'll stick some links in the show notes as well people working too hard if they wanna find out some more. right. Let's be off another week. We'll be back next week, and if anybody's got any questions or they wanna follow up from this episode or they've got any questions they want to ask at all, do let us know. Link is in the show notes to a form on my website. Fill it in, send us a question and we'll have a little natter about it, right Let's go for now. have a super week everybody. See you next time.

Jan: 36:33

bye. bye.

Fiona: 36:34

bye.