Religion in Therapy

Almost half of the UK population consider themselves religious to some degree, whether that means they're a churchgoer or simply believe in a god.

This week we chat with Kathy Spooner, CEO of The Association Of Christians in Counselling and Linked Professions, to explore how faith can play a part in our therapy.

Contact Kathy at counselling@acc-uk.org

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Would you believe it? Look at the time! It's only time for another Therapy Natters episode. This is the podcast series to help you understand a little bit more about psychotherapy, psychology, and how to build some foundations to hold yourself up if things feel shaky. Hey there, Fiona. It's podcast day again. How are you doing?

Fiona: 0:30

Hi. Hi, Richard. I'm absolutely fine. Yes, tickety boo. Nice sunny day.

Richard: 0:34

Tickety boo. It is, isn't it? Always comes at a cost, though, when it's bright blue sky and it's February.

Fiona: 0:41

Yeah, makes it chilly.

Richard: 0:43

It's cold. It's nippy. But I've turned my heater off, my fan heater, so it doesn't get in the way of the podcast. I'll just sit here in the cold. It's fine. No, I'm

Fiona: 0:52

joking. It's so professional. It's all about professional.

Richard: 0:54

I've got another heater. Yeah, we want to do a good job. We want people to listen and enjoy. And if there's anything that we can do to, um, improve that, then we will, which is why every other week for the last sort of 50 episodes or so, we've had a guest, haven't we? We have. To improve us. So we can learn too.

Fiona: 1:15

Oh, I mean, having the guest has been absolutely brilliant and we do have one today, We have with us, Kathy Spooner, who is the Chief Executive Officer of the Association for Christians in Counselling. She's also a counsellor based in Coulsdon in Surrey. I've met Kathy due to work that I've done with the professional bodies that I've rabbited on about a few times before and we just thought that it'd be a really interesting, different dimension to our Therapy Natters series because religion, spirituality, etc. is not something that Richard and I have mentioned that often, so it'd be really interesting to get your viewpoint. So Welcome, Kathy, lovely to have you here. And would you maybe start by just telling us what this means to you in terms of the Association of Christians in Counselling? What's that all about, I guess, is the general question.

Kathy: 2:12

Yeah, lovely. Thank you, Fiona. Yeah, so the Association of Christians in Counselling is a professional membership body, a bit like the BACP or the National Counselling Psychotherapy or the UKCP, but we're kind of unique in that our counsellors are professionally trained and qualified and work to Standards of ethics and training that are very similar to any other counselling body. But we are willing to self disclose as Christians. Because for some people of faith, not exclusively Christians, and people of no faith, will want to come and see a Christian. And that could be for many reasons. It could be because they want to know that their faith is welcome. Because faith has often been an overlooked or marginalised in the world of counselling practice. And there's many reasons for that, but it's just the truth. It's not taught very much on training programs. If you look at a big manual, you might find about three pages on integrating faith and counselling in a kind of standard counselling therapy book, if you find anything at all. And for somebody who has a faith or a faith background. They may not actually be practicing still, but they might have a faith background that affects the way they look at the world. It's almost like they want to choose somebody who gets them at that level, so they don't have to explain it. And Christianity, like many different Religions has different flavours. So there's different practices, there's different traditions, things have come from one root, but there's a great difference between being an Orthodox Christian, and maybe being on the kind of evangelical spectrum of free churches. But there's some fundamentals that hold that group of people together. And there's an anticipation in a client that we will share that and get them and sometimes people of other faiths come to see Christian counsellors because faith communities can be quite small and so there's a kind of worry about will people find out I'm coming for counselling. But again they kind of expect that the whole person will be welcomed into the room and into the encounter. So that's about why we exist in terms to provide a service. But we also exist in order to promote a kind of greater understanding of faith and spirituality and its association with well being and finding meaning and purpose and comfort in life and in living. So you'd have psychological problems like depression or trauma that actually impacts on your ability to have a relationship with God, to be in community with others, to have good loving relationships in your family and with friendships, but also problems in faith affect your psychological well being. So, if you've grown up with a sense of a very kind of stern and avenging God, then that's a huge burden of anxiety to carry into your everyday life. So faith can supercharge issues associated with living.

Fiona: 5:16

It's really, really interesting. There's the word faith you've used quite a lot within that. And, I think probably most people listening will have some sort of idea of what that means. What does the word faith mean to you?

Kathy: 5:33

I suppose my understanding of a human being is this aspect of ourselves that kind of connects with something beyond us. And some people might call that spirituality. So. I might think that every child and every human being has this opportunity or actually something knitted within them that's about, something other than, that's transcendent to us. And so if you can imagine looking at a sunset sometimes, you know those moments that you just connect or you look at a baby. Bill Murray's got this lovely thing on YouTube where he talks about how a painting saved his life. You know, as a young actor, he was, feeling suicidal and his path, going towards this river where he was going to jump in and kill himself, he kind of found that he was walking in a different direction towards an art gallery. And he talks about looking at a painting and somehow that painting gave him hope of a future. So in a way, there's kind of this, this. kind of level part of human being that, that has this capability and also responds to something other or beyond them. And that's often connected with kind of deep human feelings of longing, longing for connection, longing for security and desire, often desire for goodness, for peace. Most people's ideas of utopia are very similar. There's this kind of human longing for a kind of existential place of, of safety. and where desires are met. And then probably all times and all peoples that has found expression in religious faith. So a kind of particular framework that you put around that kind of innate sensibility and then in that you identify where that longing is directed. So in a Christian setting your faith would say, well actually I'm created with this longing because I was created by a loving God who wants to be in relationship with me. So this idea of a triune God that's kind of a community of relationships of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And that's why we have a longing for connection. And that's why we have a longing for security. And that is what is offered. in faith. It's this idea that this world is imperfect. We can see now the world is in a terrible state. But actually, if we, if we align ourselves with this loving God who sets an example in Jesus, as how to be in connection with people, how to run community, then that is a way of living in this world with the hope of an eternal world to come. So that's the basics. And so that faith then becomes a set of beliefs. And those sets of beliefs often lead people to have practices. So people might typically go to church, take communion, read the Bible, pray, go on retreats, read a lot about the experiences of others who have been Christian, how they've overcome adversity in their life, what's kept them through. So, so it's kind of like the spirituality is the base. Then that gets kind of framed within a faith and then that faith leads people to choose to undergo certain practices. And of course if you're a child you may have none of that choice because your kind of born into a community of faith and that forms your worldview. And to the extent that people listening are part of a kind of Western model, we will all have had some of that because a lot of Western philosophy have been informed by Christianity.

Richard: 9:10

If we go back a few hundred years, pre Freud, We've got to bear in mind that religion was one of the only places where somebody could be able to go and not feel judged by the people that were around them. Going to the priest and confessing and talking about your problems and saying, I need somebody to talk to, I'm having these problems. And in that confidential setting. Well that sounds a lot like counselling, doesn't it?

Kathy: 9:39

It does, and you know, the pastoral care that's always been part of the church tradition, and it's sometimes called in kind of spiritual writings, the care of souls. has given birth to counselling, psychotherapy, and similar types of endeavours which are about getting alongside people, accompanying them, listening to them, ideally in a non judgemental way, although there is an aspect of the way that some churches are constructed in which judgement does play a part, and that can be difficult, but yeah, in the traditional sense of, I come to my priest, I lay it all before, it's done, it's over, I am forgiven, I can move forward. That's hugely, it's been hugely helpful to people. You're not stuck, ever, with religion.

Fiona: 10:30

And I think what you said there about there are some where there's judgment, I think that that opens something up for me about, there's a sort of lack of clarity for me about, I mean, I'm not religious in terms of belonging to a particular faith or some sort of structure. My father was in hospital recently and there were various, what's the word? Chaplains. Chaplains, yeah. Chaplains, who came from various faiths came round to see him. And the one thing that they had in common was exactly what you just said. That they were there to be with him and listen to him. My father is an atheist, not an angry one, just

Kathy: 11:13

Good. Just a calm

Fiona: 11:15

one. Calm, uh, calm one. But that, that sort of being with Whereas sometimes, and this is a bit outside the counselling, well, is it? This might be a question. Is it outside of the counselling realm? The, the sort of evangelical, but with a, probably with a small e, type of Christian who's wanting to convert people, and I, I recognise that that is part of the Christian ethos, is to get people to believe, but I had Jehovah's Witnesses, uh, knock on my door the other day. Luckily. In my view, luckily I was in a meeting, so I couldn't engage. Definitely lucky for me. Probably lucky for them. But there's an aggressive type of, we know what's right, what's not right, and I would hope that that doesn't come into the counselling when you, when you go to somebody who's, labelled as a Christian counsellor. I would imagine that, that the process is that being alongside them on their journey, rather than trying to convert or say, this is what is, and you must do that.

Kathy: 12:26

Oh, absolutely. No, I mean, we have very strong ethics around this, and we, we've actually produced another kind of framework to help people. So, the role of the Christian counsellor is very different from an evangelical, you know, so you talked about people who feel that that's their calling. Our calling is to be alongside people. And faith may never come into it. I mean, I work in, I've worked in many places. People don't know I'm a Christian. It's not relevant to them. It's relevant to me and how I view them as a human being and the questions I might ask about what gives them a sense of meaning and purpose in life. And, maybe My faith, but this wouldn't be exclusive to Christians, may be valuing things that society doesn't. So actually, if you begin to ask people about their desires, what makes them happy? Where do they feel most themselves? It could be just being a good dad. So actually, it's not about what you've achieved or how much money you have or you know those those marks of success or or directions in life you could be helping people to to really focus on what makes them as a person have a richer life that that meets them so completely outside of any religious conversations or even overtly spiritual conversations. It's like prizing of the other. Unfortunately some Christian expressions have this idea of conditional love. So people would go through an experience of being very welcomed into a church. You know, it would be great rejoicing, you know, come, you're welcome, come as you are. But actually then people find that there is conditionality around that love. And there's certain codes of behaviour. Now those codes of behaviour may well be important. But the important thing is that they're chosen and not coerced. So then you end up with somebody in your therapy room who is lost. And has this terrible experience of rejection and a feeling that somehow they've been duped. I thought I was loved, but actually I'm not loved because a way of being in the world doesn't fit in. So that's what kind of one level, and that would be typically around issues of sexuality, gender identity. That's a huge issue for the church, we know. And, you know, poor Justin Welby can't sort it. You know, these are some of the kind of fault lines around faith and, and doctrine. It does cause problems. For others, of course, for the majority of people, that's not going to be an issue because one of the big models for Christians is Jesus life on earth and while he upheld his particular way of life, he was open to everyone. You know, he did not condemn people. He kind of just communicated with them, and particularly people with messy lives, and had a particular preference for the poor, the displaced, the stranger, you know, so that should inform us. But yeah, if I think about my own background, I was born into an kind of Irish and Scottish Catholic family, so went to mass every Sunday we lived next to the priest's house, and if you're an Irishman of a certain generation, your faith is kind of built into your DNA, but it's a cultural faith, so it's quite harsh. And deeply confusing as a child because on the one hand we had gentle Jesus, shepherd, loving, and on the other hand we had this terrible condemning God. And we could sin even in our thoughts, in our thoughts and in our deeds. Can you imagine carrying that as a burden as a child? So, yeah, so, so what I would think, what I'm trying to say in that is that those are the sorts of things that can be unpicked in counselling as well, to say, well, you know, is God like that? Nobody, kind of arrives at the Church of God, somebody said, without their pet God under their arm, you know, without the God that It's been given to them, spoken over them, and somebody very movingly spoke about the experience, say, of a, a young Christian in maybe one of these more kind of evangelical churches. So they've grown up in a community, imagine this, you grow up in a community, you have a certain narrative over you, you are loved by God, you are wonderful, you're beautifully and intrinsically made, all of these things. And then suddenly, because maybe you begin puberty and realize that you're gay. And you begin to try and talk about that. The narrative goes from wonderfully made to broken but blessed. And you see that shift. It's huge. It's huge. There are churches that are inclusive, but it's almost to me like your family would say to you, I'm sorry, but we can't accept how you are, but there's a lovely family down the road and they will, so you can go to inclusive church and you'll be welcome there, but I'm sorry. And do you see what I'm saying about the conditional love? So those are the kind of things that often Christian counsellors are trying to unpack with people, what that experience has been for them, how that's left them. So yes, you have problems that arise from the practices, doctrine and teaching of churches, you also have a huge amount, and the trouble is we can focus on the problems, but you have a huge amount of holding of people through those church practices. So you have a lot of preaching on love, on forgiveness, on coping with challenges in life. Unfortunately, it's the kind of the bad things that hit the headlines, but the good things. Think about some of the things that have happened just recently. The Warm Spaces Initiative, and again, they're not exclusively Christian, but I've been to Warm Spaces. So that's basically where a church opens its doors, feeds people, and allows them to stay in a warm place. What the church has enabled is a community, a local community, to come together and support each other. So it's not Christians doing things to other people. It is a space. And, you know, it's just a light for you. Go in and, there'll be a young mum with her child and these are obviously regular people and some kind of older woman might be saying, How are you love? How's it going? And actually they're ministering to one another without anyone to be part of it because they're creating a community which has its foundations of love, respect and care. I'm giving you some food, there's a warm place, there's some chairs, there's some toys, and the rest just happens between people. So yeah, so there's a huge amount of good that the church does, but psychologically, and we're looking really at counselling and psychotherapy, for some people there's some baggage from their past or their experiences that kind of need to be unpacked.

Fiona: 19:10

So just, I mean, I've experienced the warm spaces without that label particularly, where I am in Cheltenham with the Ukrainian refugees, the churches have really opened up and provided exactly that, and that's, that's been wonderful. You're talking about there that Christian counsellors can help unpick what's gone before and I can absolutely see that if you need that unpicking, to go to somebody from that background could be a safer place than to go to somebody who you don't know what on earth they're going to be thinking.

Kathy: 19:48

Yes.

Fiona: 19:48

But then there was the sort of the other side of it that I was interested in, which is a sort of looking forward and I think you used the word existential at some point, or I might have imagined it, I think you did. How often do you find that you get clients who are in that existential place of what is it all about? What's the meaning? Where am I going? Is this true? What's what? Is that, is that a big part of it?

Kathy: 20:18

Sometimes people come with those questions, and I think those questions probably underlie everything, but you can't, depending where somebody is in their journey, they might just, you know, they might just not be overt at the time. But yes, and the other thing that's kind of helpful for my studying is realizing that these are kind of normal human and normal spiritual experiences. So there's something called the dark night of the soul that sounds wonderfully poetically, but actually it's a terrible time. But it's been written about probably since The Desert Fathers in like 600 AD, and it's this sense of losing God. It's just gone, and the world is bleak and neutral and nothing makes sense. And in the kind of spiritual writers, it's this time of kind of, it's like a crucible time where you kind of come out and transform, and it's a way of letting go. You know, we were talking about the kind of doctrinal sense of religion. I believe this and that and that. And the idea of the dark night of the soul is you're kind of like, you're divested of all of that. And you're kind of forced into a kind of establishing a relationship with a, what we would understand as Christians, as a living other. A God that can't be defined, that can't be kind of humanised, that can't be tied down, but is actually there, kind of closer than your next breath. And it can be an incredibly destabilising time, and if you're in a church setting that doesn't understand that process, people will think you're falling away from faith. They won't see it as something that's a deepening of faith. So, as a therapist you'll be holding that process. You might be offering some kind of reassurance for people who are Christian that this is something that happens to people and they can then go and read about the phenomena. But it's very similar to the kind of psychological model of transitions. I don't know whether you know William Bridges work on transitions, where transitions are not like a change model. Oh, it's fantastic. So like a change model would say, I want to give up smoking. I have got a goal. And in order to do that, I've got to do certain things. You know, so I'm, I'm achieving change by, by setting myself a goal and putting steps in place. A transition model is where you find yourself somewhere in the stream of life and then suddenly nothing seems to make sense anymore and the things that sort of gave you pleasure before don't and you're kind of lost, you feel lost. And they could be forced by external events, you could lose something that gave you a great meaning in life. You could You could lose your job. You could become a parent for the first time. So it could come from an obvious outside reason, or it could just come. Then you enter something called the neutral zone. And in, in Christian religion, this has got great symbolic of the desert. You're in the desert. And, the desert is pretty sparse and difficult place to live in. But he would argue that the kind of wisdom in that neutral. So, in that harshness, in the wilderness, is you have to find a way. You haven't already decided what the way is. The kind of gift in it, is you don't know what the way is. You have to kind of live through. almost like you've got a book, you've got a book in front of you, but it's written in a language you don't understand. You kind of, you know, you just can't work it through. And then out of that becomes new beginnings. And they can look kind of messy, you know, they might not look very spectacular. And the other metaphor he uses is in winter, you know, there's, it seems like nothing's happening, but actually in the ground. All the bulbs are kind of building their strength and energy to break through. So, so he's written it in a kind of secular version, but it matches very much this kind of spiritual phenomena of the dark night of the soul and things about midlife crisis. You know, there comes times in life where we just suddenly think, do you know what, something's not right. So I think it's very helpful then to be able to work in that area with people. I mean, especially Christians, but it doesn't have to be Christians, because Christians think they're losing their faith. I remember somebody saying to me once, I can't believe it, I think I'm becoming liberal. It's like, you know, I'm having a very You know, yeah, the horror.

Fiona: 24:44

They weren't American were they?

Kathy: 24:46

No, no, and she was a lovely woman, but literally, you know, her whole edifice of life had been built on having a very, very firm, this is the truth, I'm standing by the truth. So you can imagine how unsettling that is to suddenly think, oh my goodness. Maybe that great firm scaffolding of truth that I've clung to, maybe I'm becoming liberal. So yeah, that's where the work begins and that's where the glory and flourishing of the human being, can come.

Fiona: 25:20

The truth is such a absolutely fascinating concept when we're talking about these things and where does belief stop, truth end.

Kathy: 25:29

The other part of the spectrum is, of course, some clients will only come to a Christian counsellor because they're worried that somebody will take them away from the truth. And so in that scenario, you really do have to work with what the client's bringing in. It becomes that kind of slight ethical dilemma as to, if somebody has a really unhealthy belief system, you can't just say to them, well, that's bonkers, because, you know, God's not like that. You have to really inhabit their world. And then maybe you can kind of just very, very gently kind of bring in different perspectives. Like, do all Christians think like that? Have you met somebody who's a Christian who's different from that? We ran a service during COVID for frontline healthcare workers. Many people in health care are Christians or have a religious faith. It's part of their, you know, it's part of their outworking of that, to work in, in caring roles and to work as nurses or doctors. And this thing still haunts me today. So somebody on their referral form had written something like, I'm so disappointed in myself that I didn't pump up my faith enough. And I caught COVID. But imagine having that idea, and that is an idea, that if I pray enough, bad things won't happen. So if bad things happen, I haven't prayed enough. Now, I would say that's an unhelpful belief. And so that's the kind of thing you might want to unpick incredibly gently in counselling. You know, you can't say to that person, well they're having, they are having a crisis of faith, but it's a completely different crisis of faith to the one that I was talking about before. Their crisis of faith is, I'm not good enough. I'm not a good enough Christian.

Fiona: 27:14

Anything that is not based on a fact is, then the helpfulness or validity of a belief is an individual choice. So, whilst we can sit here and say, that's an unhelpful belief.

Kathy: 27:31

Oh, yes.

Fiona: 27:32

Who's to say? Who's to determine? And there are obviously conflicts in the Bible. I mean, I had an Ethiopian refugee living with me for a while, who really, I mean, he was absolutely 100 percent for everything that the Old Testament said. I challenged him gently on some of it, but he didn't bend. You know, that some of the really sort of nasty stuff about how God would retaliate. And I can sit here and say that's an unhelpful belief, but that's just my view, not correct, it's not, it's not the truth. So we all do work with people with, beliefs that we think are, unhelpful. And it is challenging then to, how do you, how do you work with something when it's your opinion against their opinion?

Kathy: 28:32

So this is the supercharged nature of it. That person's Ultimate salvation rests on their belief system. So you're not just kind of saying, I wouldn't support Manchester United anymore because they're, you know, it's not good team, you need to kind of move to support something else. You're actually kind of dabbling at that level of existential threat. If I don't believe this, I will be condemned, or I will lose the love of God, or I'll be cut off. It's huge, it's huge for people. So, the work needs an incredible amount of self awareness and working with power. Because, of course, what do people who come and have chosen a Christian counsellor, What are they expecting? Somebody said a kind of good thing about an analogy that if you went to an art gallery that was from Indigenous Australian artists, what would you expect to see on the walls? And if you met the artists, how would you expect them to look? So for some people, again, not all, but for some people who are choosing a Christian counsellor, they're choosing, imagining something. And for some people that's imagining that will have again, turbocharge my power because I am a counsellor and an expert in that and I'm a Christian. So, what I say might be, really, really significant. On the other hand, it can work oppositely, because if somebody has got very rigid beliefs, and I suggest that they might want to kind of look at something else, then I might become under suspicion. But the interesting question, Fiona, is going back to your Ethiopian person is, how does that belief serve him in the here and now? And that would be also another thing I might not be talking about, but I'd be thinking about how does clinging onto that belief help this client, again, that's a delicate thing about, even if it's an unhelpful belief, what's its serving?

Richard: 30:28

I get a lot of emails from people, and sometimes it's existing clients that are asking for some advice on behalf of somebody else, and they'll say, How do I find a therapist? And how will I know that I'm choosing the right therapist. There are ten people in my town that seem, they've got the same qualifications. Does it matter who I even see? Shall I just go with the one that's closest to me or the one that's cheapest? And I always have to remind them that the most important part of somebody's therapy is the relationship that you have with your therapist. That is long known to be the key in having a successful therapeutic outcome. And if something can already be in place that gives somebody a leg up that says, I already know I'm gonna have some click with that person, because we've got this bit in common. Whether that's because somebody's gay and they want to see a an ally as the therapist, or it's because they're black and they want, they specifically want a black therapist who can understand what it's like to live as a black person. And I think there's a place in counselling for religion. We have to bear in mind in the UK. A good, pretty much, close to 50 percent of the public have a faith. that's pretty much, I think it's 49, that. It's a lot of people. Tens and tens and tens of millions of people. If all therapists can recognise that Then that's, that's great. And you can use, I certainly do, I use the faith of my clients in their sessions because they bring it in because if it's important to them, if it's important to them, whether it's because they're Christian or because they're an Arsenal supporter, whatever it is that's important to them, bring it into therapy. But if they can see on somebody's website or via a registered body, that look, this is a therapist that's likely to get you and understand you better than somebody else, then we need to see that. And I think having a specific place for a Christian to go to and say, where do I find a therapist? Oh, here's one that's already up the list. Speak to them. Chat with a few on the phone. Send a few emails.

Fiona: 32:43

I think there's two points to that. One is, I mean, I completely agree with you, but it can lead to collusion, as in that if people have the same beliefs, whether it's about religion or ethnicity or football teams or whatever, it's very easy to collude and just go, yeah, that's right. The other side is that it can be quite interesting for a client, and I've had many experiences of this, of people specifically going to somebody who is other. No, I don't want to go to the person who is the same as me. I want to go to somebody who is other, because then that can, encourage a challenge. It's really a personal choice.

Kathy: 33:29

It is. And I would just say around the collusion thing. Most therapists will have some worldview, set of values, ways of preferential living in the world. So I think the kind of collusion happens. Yeah, outwith, but I totally agree that the more you have the likeness with someone, the more risk there is that you collude, because you're just not challenging yourself either and as a therapist, it's that constant self awareness, isn't it? That's like how much am I just sinking into,

Fiona: 34:01

yeah, and that's what supervision's for.

Kathy: 34:04

Yes, yeah, but it is hard to challenge ethically when people are doing things that are destructive or difficult. I think that's, that's true forever and if you look at A lot of things that happened, say, with the Victoria Climbié case, I mean, that's a famous one where people didn't want to challenge practices that were happening in that family and the associated church because of sensitivities around religion, I suppose to some degrees we have to get a bit less squeamish and we certainly do around domestic violence and the kind of sanctity of marriage, you know, we have to get the message out that abuse is wrong. And can't be right for the subject of the abuse, nor for the family members. And so even though you're in a sanctity of marriage kind of rule based system, you have to keep people safe. So, you know, there's, kind of areas in which we can work well professionally, if you like, in a kind of mainstream way to raise awareness. of where this, so called love is actually abuse. And again, you know, Christian gospel is full of the quality of love, it's compassionate, it's caring, it's full of mercy, it's not harsh, aggressive, abusive. Not everybody will do this Only very few people, but you can just bring it in even if you don't say it's scriptural. You can say, well, actually, let's think about what love is, you know, when you feel loved by somebody. Is that kindness? Is it bond? Is it, again, that's a kind of transpersonal thing, isn't it? When you feel love for somebody, it kind of spills out of you. It's, it's hard to actually describe.

Fiona: 35:36

And actually, our very next session of Therapy Natters is going to be talking about love. It will because it'll be out. That's a nice segue. Yes.

Richard: 35:44

Valentine's Day. Well done. The next episode. And it's on a Wednesday, which is when these come out. So yeah, we'll be talking about love next week. Kathy, before we wrap up, is there anything in particular that you wanted to share with us that we haven't had a chance to explore?

Kathy: 36:00

That's a good question. I'm a great advocate for, for all kind of therapists and all therapy training to actually address issues of religious practice and spirituality in their training. I think it's really crucial because you miss so much if you don't do that. You miss so much in helping someone through their difficulties in living which is what counselling is about. And you can do it well. It can be done very well.

Fiona: 36:27

Good message. And I think to extend on that is to encourage every individual to evaluate, to think about these things, rather than just to presume the truths, but to think about them and to find their own path. In this way.

Richard: 36:46

Absolutely. Well, time has ticked on. We need to wrap up and finish off. So, we'll be back next week. As you know, we'll be talking about Love next week. What with it being Valentine's Day and all that. If you've got any suggestions or comments or questions to fire at any of us, including, Kathy. I mean, Kathy, are you open to somebody sending you an email asking you some questions?

Kathy: 37:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Richard: 37:10

Brilliant, I'll put your contact details in the show notes, that'll be lovely. Right, let's love you and leave you everybody. Have a super week, we'll be off. See you next time. Bye now. Thanks Kathy. Bye.