Art Therapy

This week Richard & Fiona are nattering with Art Psychotherapist Lyni Sargent about the therapeutic  benefits of making Art.

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Greetings to you, you absolute legend! It's Therapy Natters time, the podcast series all about psychotherapy that hopes to give you a bit of an insight into what therapy can do for you, why it's helpful. I'm Richard Nicholls and with fellow psychotherapist Fiona Biddle with me here. Let's see what new stuff we can learn today to help keep us sane in a crazy world. How do, Fiona? What you up to?

Fiona: 0:36

Hi Richard. just the same old, same old, I guess. But yes, keep us sane is an interesting phrase. We've got to be sane in the first place for that.

Richard: 0:44

But it is a crazy world. There's a lot of crazy things, and if we could dilute some of that down with a little bit of cheeriness, because things feel a bit grim, and it depends where you look. There's a lot of stuff in the news that, I mean, I made a podcast episode about it a couple of weeks ago. Try not to watch it! Once you know some stuff, what more do you need to know? How often do we need to watch the news? I'm gonna put it out there and say, maybe once a week. What can happen in a week that you need to know about? What's the weather? Keep up to date with the weather, so you know whether to get an umbrella or wear your wellies. As far as the news is concerned? Oh, either not at all, or once a week. But we're drawn towards negativity as humans, aren't we?

Fiona: 1:33

I like to keep on top of just sort of the headline level of news, but rarely do I go into the detail. So it's sort of just to have a vague idea of what's going on, but then not let it bother me because, well, we've talked about worthless worries before, what's the point about worrying about conflicts in other parts of the world when you can't change it, for example?

Richard: 2:02

Yeah, and in this world, I think it would be nice sometimes to sit back and just relax a little bit, despite what's going on. We can be happy despite the fact that there are people in this world that aren't. It's okay to be you and do the things that you want to do, whatever that is. Whether that's listening to music, watching TV Somebody gave me for Christmas. Oh, I've got the, where's it gone? Oh, I don't know where it's gone. It's just a colouring book. Somebody in a secret Santa. And my son's given me some pencils as well to start some colouring in. Because, I don't know whether they thought I needed it. I probably do. But it's quite nice to sit down and do some literal colouring in. All it is, is colouring in. It's an adult colouring book. But not that sort of adult colouring book. It's, it's made for adults, but it's not an adult one. Which, if you see some of those, they're hilarious. Actual adult adult dirty colouring books. They're hilarious. Get some of those if you've got a sense of humour.

Fiona: 3:02

I have to admit I haven't seen that sort of adult colouring book, but I've been doing those sorts of the type you were referring to first, I've been doing those for years, it's just so relaxing. And then you have to challenge yourself as whether you have to keep inside the lines or not. And whether you have do things in the right colour. Ooh,

Richard: 3:24

Oh, of course, yes.

Fiona: 3:26

So on this topic, we have a guest today, don't we?

Richard: 3:29

we do

Fiona: 3:30

We have Lyni Sargent with us, who is an arts therapist. Arts therapy, for those who don't know, is the only type of psychotherapy that is regulated in the UK. Strangely, but we won't go into the history of all of that. But Lyni is, as I say, an arts therapist, works in Hinkley and she's going to natter with us about using art for therapy. So welcome, Lyni nice to have you with us.

Lyni: 3:55

Hello, good to natter with you.

Richard: 3:58

lovely stuff. Tell us a little bit about, for the general public who don't really know what art therapy might be, How would you define it? How would you define it, Lyni?

Lyni: 4:10

So, art therapy is a form of psychotherapy that uses any creative medium to help aid communication and relax the mind and body.

Richard: 4:23

And this isn't just for kids, is it? A lot of people associate art therapy with play therapy. And, think of it just for children, I'm assuming that's not the case.

Lyni: 4:34

There can be massive crossovers between art therapy and play therapy. I certainly do a lot of playing in my day to day work, but there is a distinct difference as well. Where with art therapy, it is like for absolutely anybody. From the youngest is like age two, the oldest was somebody with dementia in their eighties. And, yes, there is, like I said, an element of playing, but it is, like, supporting communication. If there's any trauma, part of the brain that, as you know, I'm sure, part of the brain that's responsible for verbal language just shuts off. So you can relive the trauma, but you can't express how you're feeling, because we didn't process that memory at the time. But by drawing images, Stick figures are absolutely fine, scribbles are absolutely fine. Throwing a bit of paint on the paper and seeing what happens is absolutely fine.

Richard: 5:32

Jackson Pollock style.

Lyni: 5:34

Yay! Love it! Have you ever tried brusho? Great fun.

Richard: 5:38

Ooh. Brusho, is that an app?

Lyni: 5:41

No! These little jars of like, highly pigmented watercolour get so excited. And you wet the paper, and you sprinkle the brusho on, and it just like, explodes like fireworks. Great fun.

Richard: 5:56

I love that! I think I used to do that at school with ink. Yeah, wet

Lyni: 5:59

yeah, you do it with anybody,

Fiona: 6:01

Oh, are we going on to Amazon?

Lyni: 6:04

but whether they're young kids or fully grown adults, the awe they get at this unexpected explosion of colour, like you just can't help but be excited. In a nice, calm, safe place.

Fiona: 6:20

Nice, calm excitement, that sounds, that sounds really good. But what do you then do with that? They've, they've had that experience. Do you then do some sort of interpretation or what do you,

Lyni: 6:32

Yeah, there's like, digging around about how you're feeling, whether that links to a past experience, the anxiety of like, not knowing what's going to happen, but the end result is good, it's okay. So it's practicing possible future events to help anxiety, or go back and relive previous experiences that weren't so pleasant. But we're working through them in a nice non judgmental way. So you're feeling validated and safe. And if there's any, triggers from that past experience. We can recognise the triggers and help reduce them.

Richard: 7:14

Some of the problems that therapists and clients find is that if they've had a traumatic experience, they've heard the phrase, it's good to talk, so often, that they've been told if you've gone through a traumatic experience talking about it is the key. It's the key to overcoming What's, what's been holding you back? Overcoming the anxiety means talking about the trauma that you had, but

Lyni: 7:40

To a certain extent.

Richard: 7:41

Yes, if somebody is genuinely Traumatized by something that has happened to them, talking about it is likely to re traumatize

Lyni: 7:53

Yes, definitely.

Richard: 7:54

lot of people don't realize that and if, as therapists We all, I know there are some therapists listening to this, you see, but not all therapists will be trauma informed, will be aware of this, and clients who are listening to this might go, Oh, but I've listened to Therapy Natters for a couple of years, I think, I think therapy sounds great, I'm gonna go to my therapist and talk about my trauma. You might need to say to your therapist, talking about it re traumatizes me, we need to tread gently. Now, ideally every therapist is trauma informed and knows, Whoa, we can't go too quickly here, because this person is going to get worse, not better. And is that how art therapy can help? That you're being very, very gentle with somebody's trauma?

Lyni: 8:37

It is very, very gentle and it's a lot easier to draw a representation of that trauma, or even scribble through it, than it is to say it out loud. If you say something out loud, it's, it makes it real and it's really scary. Like, you think about having to say something to your partner, like, I didn't appreciate the way you did the washing up. it can be quite daunting, having that confrontation. If you write it down you're not having to say it. You can just, Write it down and pretend you're not going to give it to your therapist, or,

Richard: 9:12

Yes,

Fiona: 9:14

Softer, isn't it?

Lyni: 9:15

Yeah, but the, the act of colouring or even just drawing repeated circles all over your page. It's a form of meditation. If you go into like, just enough level of concentrating that you're nice and calm and relaxed, your hand is just doing enough. So your brain is focusing on what your hand's doing, therefore it can't worry about all these negative things. So the fact that somebody's engaging in art helps relax. It reduces your heart rate, reduces your blood pressure, all this funky stuff. So you're actually in a calmer state to begin with, so it's easier to talk, and you're being validated.

Fiona: 10:01

So we've got two things going on at the same time here. We've got the idea that, I mean, we would say, Richard and I would say, that that sounds like it's hypnotic and I do a lot of embroidery and crocheting and knitting which I find to be hypnotic and it's calming and it takes my mind off. I mean, I can't just sit and watch the TV. I have to be doing something else as well because otherwise I'm not paying attention to what's on the TV. So it works like that. So it's therapeutic, but without having a therapeutic aim. But you can also, from what you're saying, use art with the aim of opening up areas for exploration, for actually doing the exploration and increasing that communication that you mentioned. There's different elements to the same process, isn't there?

Lyni: 10:55

Yeah, and learning to know what the client needs, because they don't always know. But I can tell whether they need a distraction or whether it's the end goal, if you like.

Fiona: 11:08

Yeah, goals are important to know what, why you're, why you're doing something. There's an exercise that I've used usually did this with groups but you can do it individually, but with a group it has an extra dimension, I would do it after a hypnotic experience, but get people to to draw their place in the world. And anybody can do this, you don't have to be doing it with a therapist, but there's an additional benefit to that. But if they draw their place in the world, and then In a group, you get the others to say what they are seeing from their picture without the person who's done the drawing being allowed to comment. To start with, and then they can comment at the end, it's encouraging, and this works well with a group of students, but with, with anybody, it's encouraging the intuition. So it works on both ways round. And in those groups, I've always found that, you know, somebody will just get a pencil and draw a stick figure sitting on a globe. So, and that's their place in the world.

Lyni: 12:12

That's what I imagined.

Fiona: 12:14

So many, I always provide loads of coloured pencils and pens and so on and then others will go anything from that to something completely abstract that's not got a person in it, not got a world in it, but it's just a completely abstract process with loads of colour and everything in between. But it's remarkable how other people's interpretations very often tally with what is going on for that person.

Richard: 12:43

it could be really quite simple. I've seen some studies Where you simply give somebody a sheet of blank paper and a pencil and just say, just draw a stick figure to represent yourself. And there's a correlation between the size of that picture and their self esteem. So they could draw just a really small stick figure. And it's a good indicator that they don't feel they can take up much room.

Lyni: 13:13

And if you take that one step further, you can tell a lot about somebody if you ask them to draw a house, a person and a tree.

Richard: 13:22

Ooh, tell me about that.

Lyni: 13:23

So ask a client to draw a house, a tree and a person.

Richard: 13:29

So if everybody goes and does that, go and get yourself a sheet of paper, pause the podcast, go and get a sheet of paper, sit down and go, right, okay, I've got to draw, what did Lyni say? A house, a tree, and a person. Okay. So when you've done that, Press play and then restart the podcast. And what does all this mean then, Lyni?

Lyni: 13:54

So how big is the paper? Is it a scrap piece of paper or is it a nice shiny piece of paper?

Richard: 14:00

okay.

Lyni: 14:01

How big is the house? What level of detail is on the house? How big is the person in comparison to the house? Are all three objects proportionally correct? Who is the person? Is the tree bigger or smaller than the house? Is bricks and mortar more important to you or nature? And where does that person fit amongst the bricks and mortar or the nature? So it's not so much about this means x, that means y. It's opening up a discussion about what is important. You can go further. How many people live in that house? Is it your house or is it your dream house? And like you

Richard: 14:48

wow, because in,

Lyni: 14:49

the whole self esteem behind it as well.

Richard: 14:52

yeah,

Fiona: 14:52

Because you mentioned about the detail in the house, presumably the detail of the person, the detail of the tree as well, is, because

Lyni: 15:00

where have you focused your details?

Fiona: 15:02

Yeah, so somebody might draw a very simple person but a complex house or a complex tree and yeah so any combination and I guess it leads to a realization of what's important

Lyni: 15:15

that's the wonder of art therapy. You can have a hundred people draw. A house, a tree, and a person, and they'll all be different. They'll all be different colours, different sizes, and equally you'll have a hundred different discussions about what's important to you.

Richard: 15:33

So, clearly, this type of psychotherapy, it isn't just for children at all, is it? This, this is for any age at all.

Lyni: 15:46

Yeah,

Richard: 15:46

you can gain some benefit from this aged 48, by the sound of things.

Lyni: 15:51

it was incredible the things I witnessed when I was working with people with dementia.

Fiona: 15:55

Oh, tell us more about that.

Lyni: 15:57

When I arrived, they'd be so anxious and I'd be with them for one or two hours. That was more therapeutic arts rather than psychotherapy, and it gave the carers a bit of respite. And we'd start colouring, scrapbooking, cutting out photos, and instantly they'd, calm down. You could see the anxiety just evaporate. They'd get engrossed in whatever we were doing that day. It was very person centred, so whatever they wanted to do, that's what they were doing. And then after the session I'd leave, they'd remain calm, because you've opened up that window of tolerance. So they'd stay calm for that afternoon, they'd sleep better that night, they'd eat properly the next day, because they've had such a, restful period, they were better the next day as well. To a certain extent, until their dementia progressed, but

Fiona: 16:51

So by therapeutic arts, you're meaning that type that I was mentioning earlier, which isn't, doesn't have a therapeutic goal per se. It's just, it's the calming, the hypnotic state, the relaxation, the switching the

Lyni: 17:05

you're colouring in books, yeah.

Fiona: 17:07

my mother, when she had dementia, she would, she carried on knitting for a long time. She would make baby blankets. The last few, I've got them because they weren't good enough quality, if you like, to go to a charity shop, which is what she used to do because she'd make so many mistakes. But, you know, that doesn't matter for us, when the time comes for my family to need baby blankets they will have them with her errors in, and that's, fine. But it was that thing, she could just sit there and do that for hours when there wasn't anything much else that she could use her time for. So, I can see that it really works for that purpose. Is there any psychotherapeutic use with dementia, perhaps, perhaps in the earlier stages?

Lyni: 17:58

yes. So any form of diagnosis can then trigger anxiety, depression, because the world is a scary place. You have this diagnosis, illness, whatever. It's a worry. You can't help but feel anxious and depressed about it. The therapeutic arts, it's self care. It's finding that thing that works for you. Some people like colouring in books, some people prefer just drawing, both hands at the same time, bilateral scribbling. That's such good fun. And again, you're using just enough of your brain that you become nice and relaxed. Whilst you're thinking about what your hands are doing, you're not worrying about your phone bill or your, your dog or whatever.

Fiona: 18:44

find there are any gender differences? I mean, where my mind went when you were just saying that was that the men in my family would tend to go, Oh, no, I don't do, I don't do that. Whereas the women I know it's stereotypical, but stereotypes come from somewhere. The women the ones that I can think of, have all done sort of crafty. Things throughout their lives. So the idea of suggesting to any of the women that I can think of in my family that doing some colouring in can help with your anxiety, they go, yeah, yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Okay. Right. I'll get on with it. Whereas the men would go, Oh, no, not doing that.

Lyni: 19:27

I definitely see more women, females, than males.

Fiona: 19:30

How do you encourage the ones, whether they're male or female, who just go, Oh no, I don't do that. How can you

Lyni: 19:38

They don't have to. The, supplies are there and if they want to pick them up and use them then they're more than welcome. Sometimes it's like building blocks, just stacking things on top of each other or sorting things out. It's called art therapy but the end result isn't the important bit, it's the process, how you got there and. You don't have to keep this piece of art at the end of it and be proud of it. With a couple of my students, they were adopted at age two and they've missed out on vital steps in their development. So we've been making slime for the last six, seven weeks now because they need That messy play, they need to get slime all over their hands. They need to work through, Oh, it's not working. it's too slimy. It's too sticky. Oh, now it's too stiff, but the end goal then gets thrown away.

Fiona: 20:35

what do you mean by slime? What are people doing with slime?

Lyni: 20:40

we use PVA glue and an activator, and then they can make it whatever colour, glittery, messy, we literally make a right mess with this slime. I bet the parents are glad that I'm doing it in the therapy

Richard: 20:55

it's just, it is just slime in the hand. It's contact lens solution, isn't it, you mix?

Lyni: 21:00

Yeah, all borax, there's all sorts, shaving foam, yeah, a bit of cornflour, yeah, there's all sorts. I'm learning a lot about slime making. But it's that, you imagine the birth is a messy, sticky experience, and if we're not nurtured correctly From point of birth up until age two, the most critical two years of your life. You think about when a toddler is learning to eat, it's like mushing the banana and smearing it over the face. They're playing with the food more than they're actually consuming it. If they've missed out on these vital steps, then that's where the slime making comes in. Because you can't progress through life having missed a step out. You might delay that step for a few years, but at some point you've got to go back and, not necessarily with slime. But something that satisfies that learning development stage.

Fiona: 21:59

That's so interesting because we've talked about various stage models, but those are about the mind. This, well, this is about the mind, but it's much more physical as well and I certainly hadn't thought about that as being a stage, although just yesterday I was talking to somebody who was talking about their grandchildren at Christmas and how one of them it has much more of a tendency to throw their food than put it in their mouths. And I was thinking, oh, that's a bit of a mess, isn't it, really? And then I was thinking about my younger one who refused to be fed with, as soon as he was on solids, he wanted to do it himself. And that was very messy, but his aim was to get it into his face because, and he still does he's very keen on eating. But I hadn't actually thought about that as a developmental process, that stage and the necessity of it. That's very, very interesting to me.

Richard: 22:58

Mmm.

Lyni: 22:58

I'd like to apologise to my mother for making mud pies all over her lovely clean patio, but it was just something I needed to work through.

Richard: 23:09

Yeah. You see a lot of, a lot of memes, don't you, of, oh my god, what it is to be a parent. And it's, they walk into a room and there's this crayon all over the walls,

Lyni: 23:22

Yeah,

Richard: 23:23

paint splattered everywhere, and the cushions have been painted on and things like that, and the children are young, they don't know the damage that that causes.

Lyni: 23:33

wipe clean surfaces are your friend.

Fiona: 23:37

That just made me think of my niece who's got two little ones and she does quite a lot on Instagram and they, these children are always perfect. And I've, I've messaged her and said, do they never get dirty? And she sent me a picture of them with chocolate, well, the little boy with chocolate all over his face. But then I, I saw them at a family event and at the end of the event they were as clean as they were at the beginning. So somehow these children are clean. But that's making me wonder, well, I hope that they aren't clean all the time.

Lyni: 24:10

Maybe they got all the messy dirty stuff they needed years ago and

Fiona: 24:15

And then, then they don't need to do it at the family event. What you were saying then, Richard, about the, crayons on the walls and so on, just made me think about how parents will often label children as naughty, or good or bad. When they haven't got the level of awareness or understanding of good and bad. So they can't be naughty. A little baby cannot be naughty.

Richard: 24:40

But what a label to be given, that they're a naughty child.

Lyni: 24:45

It's a Dreadful term. Oh, this is my naughty girl. Aren't you naughty? She's going to be like, yeah, I'm naughty. I'm going to live up to this standard now. So they're going to see naughty behavior.

Fiona: 24:56

And label things as naughty, even when they're not.

Lyni: 25:00

Yes, it's like, oh, you don't see many orange cars on the road, do you? Bet when I drive to work later, every other car will be orange.

Richard: 25:07

Yeah, that’s just just how the brain works that’s the frequency illusion. Once your brain has been primed for something you see it.

Fiona: 25:17

Going back to the idea of as an adult using art, that will, I would imagine, bring out some of those labels that people haven't realised that they hold, because if they draw themselves and then describe what they're drawing. For example, that naughty could well come out at that point when they haven't thought about it for years. It's just what they are. I would like to just say also that the opposite of being told you're a good girl all the time can equally be damaging.

Richard: 25:48

Yeah. Because there's an expectation then,

Lyni: 25:50

yeah, living up to those standards. Well, yeah, like,

Fiona: 25:53

And what does that mean? Anyway? Yeah. What does it mean? Yeah.

Richard: 25:57

We need to just accept everybody for who they are. When they're young, I mean, you can accept everybody who they are anyway, but particularly youngsters.

Lyni: 26:07

Especially when they're finding their identity, they don't know who they are.

Richard: 26:10

Yeah.

Lyni: 26:11

we're labelling them.

Richard: 26:12

Yeah, and that, that's something that art therapy, by the sound of things could work really well. That you draw, you draw yourself, you draw a label, what does that label say? And they write something and you go, okay, well let's get some, let's get the tipex mouse out, or let's get the rubber out. Let's erase that. Let's change that.

Lyni: 26:29

there's a lot of negative connotations about labels at the minute and diagnoses. And do we need to label children as ASD, ADHD? Yes, yes we do. Thank you. Does the DSM 5 need over 300 diagnoses in it? Probably not. Probably like 10 percent of them are really helpful and useful and yes, we need to know what they are.

Fiona: 26:54

We discussed this very early on in our series and I actually feel that even since then, so it's sort of close to two years ago, I think things have moved on in terms of the ADHD. Etcetera, labelling. It seems to have become even more prevalent in that time.

Richard: 27:14

As with so many things, once something becomes part of everybody's awareness, things come out of the woodwork. There was a period, thinking of ADHD, there was a period not so long ago where the average age that somebody was being diagnosed, and there was a huge amount of people, but something like 40, 45, maybe 50, something like that. Because, but, they didn't just develop ADHD age 50. You know, they had it when they were conceived, you know, it's neurological, you know. They've always had it, but suddenly it's in the awareness. You go, oh, that's what ADHD is. Ohhhh. So you do get a lot of people suddenly coming forward with it. Lyni's got a look on her face as if to say, Oh, I know about this, I know about

Lyni: 27:57

You think about the farmer and the hunter, there's always been farmers and hunters. The farmers, very neurotypical, they're able to plan their field, they're able to sow the crops, they're able to tend to these little, sprouts? little baby plants. They're not getting anything at the moment, but they're still tending. They're still giving 100 percent care and effort to this field of crops. It's not until like, I don't know, six months later, they've then got all this hard work of digging up the potatoes, the carrots. Hard physical labor. It takes them like hours, days, to, to bring these crops in. Then they've got to Wash them all and put them in bags and store them and give them out to the villagers. That's a lot of planning, that's a lot of effort for not a lot of dopamine. And then you think about the hunter who, they need some meat, they've got to do it now. Off they run, full energy. They're still giving 100 percent energy to hunt down this buffalo or whatever. Then they, kill it, they drag it back to the camp. They share it amongst their mates, they have a big feast, they sleep for a week. The farmers need the hunters, otherwise they wouldn't have their supply of meat. And the hunters need the farmers, otherwise they wouldn't eat for a week. I'm a vegetarian, by the way. But, cool analogy.

Richard: 29:25

Yeah. Yeah. These things have always been with us.

Fiona: 29:29

suggests then that it's society that's gone a bit skew iff in that not, not finding the roles correctly for the different personality types.

Lyni: 29:41

But, that is how art therapy can help if you've been wrongly labelled. It's quite often that adults grow up being told that they were thick needed to try harder.

Richard: 29:52

Yeah.

Lyni: 29:52

Come into art therapy, let's work through these horrible labels. A lot of art therapy is about finding your identity, feeling lost in the world. Not knowing where you are, not where you need to go.

Richard: 30:06

Is there a demographic, or a personality type, or certain symptoms that might be even more suited to art therapy? If they're looking for a therapist.

Lyni: 30:20

there's lots of different therapists out there, as you know. Different things work for different people. If anybody's contemplating therapy, then go and try it. If you don't like it, then you won't offend us. It's not a one size fits all.

Richard: 30:35

it'd be quite useful for, I think students therapy students, somebody studying counselling and psychotherapy, if they need to have, I think, 50 sessions? 50 therapy sessions to qualify? Or is it more than that now? I know it used to be 50, so

Fiona: 30:50

48 in, in hypnopsychotherapy but they vary depending on the modality. So if somebody's training to be a psychoanalyst, they need to have X number per week, which might vary from two to five times a week for the length of their training, which might be five years and then another five years afterwards. But yeah, so arts therapy is something like a hundred hours. I think and yeah, there's, it can be a huge, huge range of different number of hours. And I know UKCP is moving towards an outcomes based process rather than specifying the number of hours because we all know that people can go for therapy and get absolutely nothing out of it if they've just got to do their hours. So

Lyni: 31:38

yeah, but your tutor can accommodate so I didn't have weekly therapy, I was having fortnightly therapy because I was seeing my therapist before I started my course, fortnightly, I was granted permission to carry on seeing her fortnightly. They just need to know, because you do discuss some horrific things in training, and you need to be okay with it. And likewise, once you're qualified I still see my supervisor because now instead of reading horrific case studies I'm dealing with horrific true stories.

Fiona: 32:11

yeah, it's vital.

Richard: 32:13

yeah, if people can, have, when they're training, I didn't do this, but I know some of the people I was training with said, Oh, if you've got to have 48 sessions, I might have 10 with, A CBT Therapist, 10 with an Analyst, 10 with a Gestalt, 10 with a TA Therapist, maybe 10 with an Art Therapist. I don't think anybody really did in the end, because that's spreading it all too thinly. But certainly, maybe if you were interested have Art Therapy as well.

Fiona: 32:46

I think that can actually work with people who are starting from the point of view of, I don't need therapy and you're forcing me to do therapy. That can be a way to get them engaged. When you do get them engaged, they find that they do need therapy, or don't need therapy, but they can benefit from therapy.

Lyni: 33:05

think those who are very adamant that they don't need therapy are probably those who do need therapy. Am I allowed to say that?

Richard: 33:13

No, you're quite right. Yeah, because I think everybody can benefit from therapy, and those that are very adamant that they won't, there's something going on there.

Fiona: 33:23

and they're, they're they're train training to be a therapist, but I don't need it. Yes,

Lyni: 33:30

Well, you won't pass your course then.

Fiona: 33:31

it's a delicate conversation. I've had many a time.

Richard: 33:35

Oh, is it? Oh, okay. I think we've natted enough for one day and we do need to wrap up. Lyni, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and sharing your wisdom and experience and insight. That's been really, really interesting. If anybody wants to reach out to you, you're quite easy to find. I suppose you're dotted around the internet, I think, aren't you?

Lyni: 33:55

Yeah, just Google me.

Richard: 33:57

There's not many Lyni Sargents, especially Lyni spelt L Y N I.

Lyni: 34:01

I think there's only one of me.

Richard: 34:02

You're a Google Whack.

Fiona: 34:05

Oh, I haven't heard that term for a while.

Lyni: 34:07

And I'm on Instagram as Starleng, like the bird, but spelt S T A R L E N G because that's an anagram of L Sargent. Yes!

Richard: 34:23

okay. That makes sense now. Oh, I often wondered that. I'll stick a link in the show notes anyway.

Lyni: 34:29

Yes.

Richard: 34:30

Also in the show notes will be all the different contact details for myself and Fiona and so on. If you want to reach out to us and send us a message, you are very, very welcome to. We'll be back next week with another exciting installment. In the meantime, have a super one, everybody, and we will talk to you then. Thanks again, Lyni. Take care.

Fiona: 34:48

Thanks, Lyni. Bye everybody. Bye.