The Big 5 Personality Traits

In this episode of Therapy Natters, join Richard & Fiona as they explore the influential psychological theory of OCEAN – the Big Five Personality Traits of Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism – to gain insights into the complexities of what it is to be human!

https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/big-five-personality-traits
https://openpsychometrics.org/printable/big-five-personality-test.pdf

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Good day, you fantastic folk! Here we are again with yet another episode of Therapy Natters, the podcast series all about psychotherapy, mental health, and all those offshoots that come from spending too much time wondering why we do what we do in the way that we do it. I'm Richard Nicholls, and alongside Fiona Biddle, let's see if we can answer these questions that have been dominating humans for millennia, shall we? Hello Fiona, how are you doing?

Fiona: 0:38

I'm fine, that's quite a big aim, but let's just try and answer a little bit, shall we, today?

Richard: 0:44

We can only do our best.

Fiona: 0:47

Yes.

Richard: 0:48

Because we'll never fully have an answer to the question of What is the meaning of life? Because, what does that question even mean? What is it to be human? Stoics and philosophers and so on have been talking about it for thousands of years. And we'll still be doing it in a few thousand

Fiona: 1:09

Yeah, it is, it is pointless to try to answer it really, but we can, we can attempt to discuss little parts of that huge question because it is so huge. There's so many different dimensions to being human. There was that lovely BBC Radio 2 series, I think it was Radio 2 series on what it means to be human, where they got, I don't know if it's still going, it'll be on Sounds, I'm sure, but where they got all sorts of people to talk about what they felt it meant to be human.

Richard: 1:38

nice. And they'll all have

Fiona: 1:40

all have. Yes, everybody has a different answer. So for our listeners, it's about what do you feel it means to be human? Have you actually ever really thought about that? I was talking to somebody the other day, just a random situation, and it was clear that that person had never really thought about what it means to be human. It was,

Richard: 2:03

We just accept, without thought, without thinking. And that's fine, you don't have to think about it if you don't want to, but it might be nice to. And, and when, I guess, Freud is one of the first people to go, Right, let's document all of these thoughts that everybody's having about who they are, And the, the personas that they bring in. Well, I say Freud. It was more Jung, really, I suppose, that started the persona

Fiona: 2:30

Yeah,

Richard: 2:31

I

Fiona: 2:32

that's a Jung thing. Persona, shadow, real self. We talked about that at some point.

Richard: 2:36

And it was, it was Jung that, I think he actually created the, the phrase Introversion, Extraversion. I didn't dream that, did I? Was that Carl Jung that

Fiona: 2:50

If this was a quiz question, I would say it was It was Jung, but I can't for definite say that somebody didn't coin the terms before. But he's the one who's known.

Richard: 3:01

Because it's Latin,

Fiona: 3:02

Yeah, but it's turn, it's turning inward or turning outward. Version is turn as in revert, invert, covert, So, it's, it's, the, the, vert, verse, it means turn, so then the in is in, and ex is out, and ad is towards, and et cetera, et cetera. So, yes, it's Latin, but whether he put them together originally in this way but he is the one who really went to town with it, because he did, and then plenty of people. including Myers Briggs did so even more afterwards. That's based on

Richard: 3:45

It was that mother and daughter, wasn't it, Myers?

Fiona: 3:47

I'm not sure, I knew it was two people, but beyond that I don't know who they were, but they took the Jungian concepts to create their

Richard: 3:57

Hmm.

Fiona: 3:58

testing.

Richard: 3:59

Well there was a time when there were 16 categories that would make up a personality. 16 words, and there were psychologists that came after that and went, That's too many. Can we merge some of these together? And managed to get it down to five. I forget all their names. There was a few different people that did that. And then five were chosen to create that ocean. Big five list That pretty much everything about our personality makeup can fit within five different categories. Which was quite useful.

Fiona: 4:39

So this ocean idea the big five personality traits, actually is a lot older than I originally thought. it was developed in 1949. Yeah. by D. W. Fisk and later expanded upon by others, including Norman, Smith. Goldberg and McCrae and Costa. So, it's been going for a long time but so has the Myers Briggs. That hasn't disappeared. But I don't know about you, Richard, but I find that the ocean idea is, more nuanced and therefore more accessible. The Myers Briggs, I mean, I, I don't, I expect most people who are listening to this will know what I'm talking about when I say that,

Richard: 5:28

Hasn't really stood the test of time though.

Fiona: 5:30

Well, I don't feel it has, but I know that some people do really believe it, but it gives you sort of percentages on the dimensions of introversion, extroversion and I can't remember what the others are, but I know what some of the words are, but I can't remember which pairings they go, so you've got thinking and feeling and sensation and so on, but I tend to find that I come out sort of 60 40 on them all. And also that my scores will vary depending on the context that I'm in and, just how I'm feeling at that particular moment. And I actually found myself saying to that same person that I mentioned having the conversation with the other day, that I'm extroverted and I thought I've never said that before. But in that context, that's what I felt I was. So I can be. But in my heart, I feel I'm introverted, so it's so context dependent. So, I find that the ocean idea gives more nuance and acceptance of that variability. We had a question, didn't we, that led us to this conversation.

Richard: 6:35

We did. Yes. I will read it out. It was from Julia. And Julia wrote in to say, I think of myself as an introvert, but I know I have extroverted tendencies, and at one time in my twenties, could enjoy big groups as much as smaller interactions, I just couldn't handle the big ones as often. Over the last ten years or so, I've found larger groups more and more draining though, and find myself really drawn towards nights out with just one or two of my close friends, or better still, nights in with them. My question is this. Is this introversion? Or am I somewhere in the centre of the scale but socially anxious? As a teen I felt somewhat awkward around people and I do wonder if that awkward nervousness simply feels like introversion. Thank you, Julia. And that's what led me to be thinking about the introversion extroversion scale that everybody sits on somewhere.

Fiona: 7:30

And that can vary from moment to moment. I think. And I'm pretty sure we have said this at some point before but a lot of people think of introversion and extroversion being about the expression of the self. So they tend to think that somebody who's extroverted is socially confident, which is one of the things that the ocean says. The E in ocean is extroversion. We should say that we will look at the O and the C and the A and the N, but at the moment we look who starting in the middle. So they think that people who are the sort of the life and soul of the party are extroverts and the ones who sit quietly in the corner are introverts. It's not quite how it is. It's about how you energize yourself, where you get your recharge from, how you recharge your batteries. So, you could be the life and soul of the party, but not get your batteries charged by it. You could be the person who's quietly in the corner and get your batteries charged by it. So, it's slightly different to how people tend to think of it as. So, in terms of Julia's question I think it's probably a mixture of both. I mean, she did actually say there, didn't she, that she would get something from those social interactions, which is a sign of Extroversion. The fact that she doesn't want to do it all that much and with all that many people, it's not really changing that. Does, is it? don't feel it is.

Richard: 9:01

Well, it's probably no surprise to listeners. I think of myself as an extrovert. I get my energy from the people that are around me. They feed me. Even if I'm not the centre of attention, I just need to be around other people soaking up the environment and I get recharged. That gives me energy. Whereas My wife, Dawn, is the opposite end of the scale. Big groups drain her, they don't give her energy. Whereas doing her nails, sitting, scrolling through Instagram, sitting in a quiet room with a comfy dressing gown on, that energises her. Well, that puts me to sleep. That makes me tired, but it energises her. that's because our personality is both nature and nurture. It isn't just, well, this is the culture you're in, or the upbringing you've had, and this is what's familiar and safe, and is less hard work. There's also genetics at play here, because every brain is different. Yours and mine are different.

Fiona: 10:05

And again, as I say, I sort of feel that I'm in the middle. So, as we're recording this, it's not long, after the Christmas period, and I had a very busy Christmas, probably the busiest I've ever had. And at the end of it, I was, I've had no time to myself. I absolutely loved everything. I mean, had, had a really good time friends, family, all sorts of people. And It was great, and that did energise me, but afterwards it was sort of, now I need time to myself. But on this, um, website that I've got here about Ocean, it lists common traits related to extroversion. Social confidence, talkativeness, energy, outgoing nature, assertiveness, ability to articulate, tendency for affection, and friendliness. Now, I would say you and I have all of those. I would say that, I mean, I don't know Dawn very well, but she has those. She can, she

Richard: 11:04

Yeah.

Fiona: 11:04

all those.

Richard: 11:06

Introverts can be confident.

Fiona: 11:07

Yeah,

Richard: 11:08

And assertive. Dawn has got great boundaries. She really does.

Fiona: 11:12

she can articulate. I don't know about affection, I would imagine affectionate, she's friendly.

Richard: 11:18

Yeah.

Fiona: 11:19

what's important here is for people to consider it themselves. And not get too hung up on the labels and the issues, but again, as we've often said, is look for where there's something that isn't helping. So if you find that, how you feel you are is not working in terms of a relationship, then you need to be discussing that with whoever you're in relationship with, whatever sort of relationship, and considering. But not suggesting people change how they are, but there could be times on the talkative, for example, if, if you feel that you're a very talkative person and you're with somebody that that doesn't gel with, then you can turn it down, just as an example, or turn it up.

Richard: 12:12

Yeah, or turn up. Well, I think a lot of therapy, whether it's self therapy or therapy with a Therapist is about getting to know yourself, and the Ocean Categories, O C E A N, I think really does help people to get to know themselves, and with that little bit of knowledge of, oh, that's who I am, can become an acceptance of who you are. So that you're working with your strengths and not being frustrated about your weaknesses, or perceived weaknesses, when there's nothing wrong with being introverted, it's a 50 50 split in, in the human race and other creatures or animals are introverted and extroverted as well. I don't know how they test it But we're not alone.

Fiona: 12:55

You can see it though, can't you? We, we've all seen, dogs that are more introverted or extroverted, but that's in terms of their display. We don't know how they're being energized because they can't tell us that.

Richard: 13:08

Yeah,

Fiona: 13:08

so that's going back to that slight misperception of what the words mean.

Richard: 13:13

we could in theory have a five digit number referencing the OCEAN That says, oh look, this is your personality, if on a scale of one to five, how, O open to new experiences. You are, oh, there's your number, and everybody's got their own unique number, I suppose. There's probably a website for that, I'll find one and link to it.

Fiona: 13:38

There probably is. Well, there will be. Yeah, I mean, these things, I mean,

Richard: 13:41

one, because I think that'd be quite

Fiona: 13:43

yeah, the, on the, on the ocean, when googling that, there are, there are questionnaires for it. So, should we look at the O, C, A, and N? So, O is openness to experience. Now, we've discussed that before when we talked about the fully functioning person, the Rogers idea, but It's about how willing a person is to try new things and engage in abstract and complex ideas. Now, some people really don't like to try new things. They want to stay exactly with what they do. I do it this way, this works for me, I don't need to try something else. My father, for example, you know, if he, if he goes to the pub for a meal. There's only going to be two things that he could possibly choose between, because, you know, well, I don't, I don't want to try anything new. Now, strangely, if you just dump something new in front of him, he's likely to eat it, which makes us all giggle. But, That's, that's, that's a different matter. That's not choosing to, in fact, I think he just doesn't realize that he's got something different.

Richard: 14:52

So, I guess there's a stubbornness at one end of it, and then openness at the other.

Fiona: 14:58

yes. I mean, I wouldn't say in that context, stubborn. It is just, there's not a need to try.

Richard: 15:04

Hmm, yeah.

Fiona: 15:06

not an active, I'm not going to just a why would I sort of, I'd, I know that I

Richard: 15:12

Yeah.

Fiona: 15:13

so I'll have that.

Richard: 15:14

Yeah. yeah.

Fiona: 15:16

So, Shaun, who was on this a few weeks ago, a restaurant we used to go to quite often in London, which is now closed, so I won't name it. He always had exactly the same thing from the menu. Starter and main course, always the same. Whereas I would be, well, I've not tried that before, I'll have that one. Oh, I've not tried that, I'll have that one. I mean, sometimes I'd have one that I'd had before because it was nice, so it's not always. But, that is a personality trait of openness to, experience. Although again, we need the nuances because Shaun is perfectly willing and happy to go to new places, whether that's new restaurants or new countries or travel and whatever. But in terms of the food, he wants what he has.

Richard: 16:02

Hmm. Whereas If somebody can be open to new ideas, taking openness to, maybe even just taking risks. I'm quite, I score quite high on openness to new experiences. If somebody said, well, I've got myself into trouble lots of times because somebody will just say. Uh, do You want to do that? I'll just go yes. And Dawn is saying, what have you signed up for now? I'm going hill walking. Are you? But you're very unfit. Uh, maybe I'll cancel afterwards. Why did you say yes? Oh, it just sounded like fun. Because it's new, because it's different. Whereas Dawn's further down the scale of, No, I, I, I already know what I like and I'm just going to carry on with this, thank you very much. Because we all sit on the scale somewhere, different to each other.

Fiona: 16:53

I'm finding it interesting how, again, the same website, which is called indeed. com and it's a career guide place, but it's got a really good, precis of this. How it ties in behaviours, such as going hill walking, and when you said that it reminded me of going on the zip line thing in Alaska. That was certainly trying something new and I would do it again. But it ties it in with the, willingness to be open in your mind. So, the phrase that I used before was to engage in abstract and complex ideas. Now, those two things, yeah, those two things don't seem to me to be necessarily parallel. You can be stuck in your ways, in terms of your behaviours, but open to abstract and complex ideas, or the other way around. But the phrases that they use for traits are Insightfulness, Imagination, Varied Interests, Curiosity, Intellect, Perceptiveness, Willingness to try new things, and Drive for Exploration. And there's that mix, isn't there? Between those two things, the internal world of, thinking about things and presumably discussing them, being open to discussing, being open to being wrong, which is an interesting one,

Richard: 18:11

to be vulnerable.

Fiona: 18:12

To be vulnerable. To having your mind changed. Interestingly here it says, because this is, as I said, a work based, a career based website, and it says a person who scores low on this factor, so openness, prefers routine and tradition, they may enjoy accounting, since it's a field involving numbers and rules that are relatively clear to follow, but they probably wouldn't want to be in the creative arts. I've added that bit, it say that there.

Richard: 18:41

Yeah, they probably wouldn't thrive in that. That wouldn't be using their strengths, would it? No. So that's openness to new experiences. The C, that was conscientiousness, if my memory serves me correct.

Fiona: 18:55

does. Conscientiousness. So, according to this site, conscientiousness refers to an individual's desire to be careful and diligent. People who have a strong conscientiousness trait, are often self disciplined so they can achieve clear long term goals.

Richard: 19:12

Because people think of the word conscientious as being a people pleaser. So I, I think of myself as a bit of a people pleaser, but that's more about the agreeableness, which we'll come to in a bit. Where is conscientiousness? Attention to detail? Yeah, I don't score that high on that. Because when I mentioned this to Billy, my son, yesterday, and said, Oh, we're gonna talk about the Ocean Big Five personality traits. And he went, Ha! You score high on every single one. You're just nothing but personality. Oh wow, am I? As I was thinking about it, yeah, he's got a, he's got a point. But I think that's often because conscientiousness gets misunderstood. Because it doesn't mean, oh, you're approachable and friendly. It's attention to detail. And I don't really have

Fiona: 19:55

the traits it's got listed here are self discipline, consistency, dependability, persistence, planning, ambition, control. Resourcefulness. Now, this is where I say, again, the nuances come in. If you could see my kitchen right now, you would not think I had self discipline, but that's because I had to do so much of that over the Christmas period that I've just Just let it go, for now, because there's nobody else here, so it just doesn't matter. Now, for a lot of people, that would really matter. They would find that really, really difficult, to deal with. I don't. It will get back to being absolutely fine before anybody else comes again. So, my self discipline is dependent on other factors. I'm reminded of a client I used to have, who would absolutely not go out of the house without full makeup on. So, to her that was a self discipline, and consistency, and dependability and control. whereas, you can be conscientious, but not obsessive. Is that the right word?

Richard: 21:12

yeah. As opposed to a friend of mine, who was brought up in exactly that same way. You can't leave the house without a full face on, can't even just pop to the shops for a pint of milk. And it was out of anxiety that she needed to put her makeup on before she left, which is the other end of the ocean. That's the N for neuroticism, which we'll come to.

Fiona: 21:31

know. Yep, yeah. These also tie in a lot with our values, don't they? These traits are linked highly to values. So when I read the word dependability, that really resonated with me. I want to be the dependable one. I want people to be able to know that if I say I'll be there at 10, I will be there at 10. If I say I'm going to do this, I will have done it. That's a really important value to me. Which is a sort of external thing, whereas the internal, the kitchen isn't. Tidy doesn't matter, but I do prefer it when it is.

Richard: 22:13

So that's C, conscientiousness. We've mentioned the E in the ocean, which was the extroversion introversion scale, and then A is agreeableness. And so I think it's easy to get sometimes the conscientiousness and the agreeableness mixed up a little bit, because

Fiona: 22:33

Well, yes, if you're, if,

Richard: 22:34

right thing Might fall under that.

Fiona: 22:38

if you're not dependable, but that's probably the only one of those. If you're not dependable, then you're not going to be agreeable. So, should we look at the traits of agreeable?

Richard: 22:48

Yes! Because you've got a disagreeable at one end and agreeable at the other. Too far at one scale, I think, is when people are a bit of a walkover. And too far down the other end, they cause problems because all they do is disagree. So I don't think I scored that high on that. I think I can definitely disagree and think for myself.

Fiona: 23:09

I'll go through them because I, hmm, agreeing doesn't seem to be in this list. So being altruistic, being polite, being kind, being considerate, being selfless, being patient, being humble, and being trustworthy are the traits. That doesn't say you have to agree with people, but you would do it from a place of being polite and being kind and considerate. But definitely there is a, I think perhaps on all of these, it's the first time today that we've mentioned continua, which is unusual for us.

Richard: 23:43

Hmm.

Fiona: 23:44

But there, we can see these things as, I mean politeness, that's a continuum and it will vary from moment to moment. I think most people have a general tendency to be somewhere on that continuum. I like to think that I would usually be polite, but I know that I have moments when I'm not. Same with kindness, same with consideration. Selflessness is an interesting one when you think of it in terms of a continuum. So, what does that mean?

Richard: 24:09

Hmm.

Fiona: 24:10

really selfless, then that's getting to the sort of, the doormat walkover but maybe some roles in society have a selflessness built into them.

Richard: 24:22

Problems occur if, if there's too much of one and then too much of another, so there's too much agree there's not too much, but you score high for agreeableness, but also high for neuroticism, for example. That might cause some low self esteem issues, whereas having low neuroticism, but high agreeableness, can mean you've still got your boundaries, which I think is important for people.

Fiona: 24:48

Patience.

Richard: 24:49

Hmm

Fiona: 24:52

I'm certainly somebody who says, Right, I've been patient now, can we just get on with it? Yes. Not very good with patience. Humbleness, humility. That's a word that's so often misused. These words, people say, you know, they've just been awarded a, an OBE and it humbles them. No, it doesn't. That's not the word. It's the opposite. It makes them proud.

Richard: 25:15

hmm, yeah.

Fiona: 25:17

Which is fine. I mean, if you

Richard: 25:19

So, so if you're a bit,

Fiona: 25:21

proud.

Richard: 25:22

yeah that's fair, but if you're, if you're a bit pedantic, where would that fit on the ocean? If you're something a bit pedantic, would that be conscientiousness? Getting, making sure that things are done properly? I'm not quite sure, but being, being pedantic is a personality trait and must fit in one the big five because that's the point of it. Where would it go?

Fiona: 25:44

Ooh, that's a good question. Where would being pedantic go? I think It would probably be a bit low on openness to experience because you're not being, open to trying things differently. For example, my mother once, when she was told that a split infinitive was now allowable under, I think it was the Webster Dictionary, and she said, well, the dictionary's wrong then. So, so Being pedantic, conscientiousness, well, that's consistency, dependability, so it does fit there, doesn't it? bering pedantic is being consistent, yeah.

Richard: 26:23

Mmm. Yes.

Fiona: 26:25

If it's, if, if you've not been allowed to use a split infinitive, then that's how it is. But going back to humility, the opposite of humility would be arrogance, wouldn't it? But pride is somewhat different so I think that's one where pulling apart what that word actually means is really important. And trustworthiness, I mean that could fit in conscientiousness. That could fit there just as well, couldn't it? But yes, as you were saying earlier, the agreeableness with the people pleasing, can become too much of a burden

Richard: 27:03

If the mix is wrong, because of that last one, where you sit on the neurotic scale, which sounds, which sounds a bit, sounds a bit negative, doesn't it? Where are you on the neurotic scale? What, today? Oh.

Fiona: 27:19

you've given the game away by using it as an example earlier, but yeah the N is neuroticism. So, that's the expression of negative or fear based emotions, according to this. People who are low in self regulation are high in neuroticism. Mm hmm. That's an interesting phrase, isn't it? And people who, oh, I'm not sure I've, I'm not feeling very happy with this. People who have powerful emotional reactions may score high in this area. At least it says may, not don't do. But I think you can have a powerful emotional reaction and not be neurotic.

Richard: 27:53

Yeah. Feelings are valid guys.

Fiona: 27:54

Yes. Feelings are valid. I mean, I suppose remembering this is a work based thing. It may be that they're wanting somebody not to scream and shout in the office, or burst into tears in a meeting. So, I suppose in that context it might work. But we've often said that The display of emotion is not the same as feeling it, so that would be more about expressing the emotion, and finding ways that, for that to be appropriate whereas you can allow yourself to feel whatever you feel. So the traits for neuroticism include awkwardness, anxiety, wariness, jealousy, pessimism, instability, insecurity, and fearfulness. Now, all of those are valid emotions.

Richard: 28:42

Mm.

Fiona: 28:43

All of them. Again, it's about, I mean, everything we've had here. Every trait we've listed is a perfectly valid trait to have. And it's about where you are on the continuum and whether that's right for you at the time and in the context. So, awkwardness.

Richard: 29:00

and, and, whether it's a personality trait or it's situational, because if you're standing in front of an audience of 200 people delivering a speech, it would be unusual to not be emotional, to not be anxious. If you were nothing but confident, and only confident, then there's, then you're not going to do a performance, you're not going to care. So we need those

Fiona: 29:26

And we need, yeah, awkwardness. I've worked with lots of clients who've expressed problems with feeling awkward, and I refer them to sitcoms. Friends is a great one. You see so much awkwardness that goes on in Friends, and it can help normalize it and say, Look, it's fine to be awkward in certain situations. It's normal. But obviously, there are times when it can be too much. Wariness, everybody should be wary from time to time. Jealousy, completely normal. Pessimism, well, the world we live in at the moment, if you let yourself, it could be a very pessimistic place. But that's a choice. Isn't it? Is it a choice? I think it's a choice. I was listening to stuff recently about, whether we have free will, and that's, that's a really, to me, that's a really good example of how theoretically I can see the arguments for not having free will, but we then choose what to do. So I'm not skilled enough to be able to have a debate with somebody about whether we have free will or not. But my gut instinct is we can choose how optimistic or pessimistic we are about the world. Just use that as an example to say that's utilizing free will, isn't it? But that's a bit of a tangent.

Richard: 30:49

we know from studies with twins who have been brought up in different households that our personality is made up by 50 percent of our DNA. It's, half and half, nurture and nature. So some stuff you're born with and it's tough. You've got to work a little bit harder to override your genetics. So if you've got Uncle George's Misery Gene, which is the one that I use in my head a lot. I don't have an Uncle George. But I think it was a comment I made in a blog post, or it was in my book or something. Uncle George's Misery Guts Gene. It doesn't mean you're destined to be miserable. It just means you've got to work a little bit harder at being contented and seeing the good in something. And yes, pessimism is likely to be inherited too. And then there's the nurture side of it as well, that, well, if that's what you've seen from everybody around you, that you ought to act this way and behave this way and complain about these things, then you will. But like you say, there is a choice. It's not easy to override it, but there is a choice.

Fiona: 31:50

So then instability, well nobody's stable all the time, that's just normal again, but if you feel very unstable, then that would be a question of looking at what's, what's causing your instability and insecurity. I mean, what's the difference between instability and insecurity in this context? I'm not terribly sure. And fearfulness. Again, that's a normal thing to have some level of fearfulness, like the wariness. it makes sense we wouldn't want to be without it, but it's a question of whether it's too much. I think this, this model does give that nuance that, we need. That you can, you can look at where you are, see whether that's an okay place on each continuum. And do something about it if you, feel a need to.

Richard: 32:41

Like I so often say, nothing's a problem unless it causes problems, but if where you sit on those scales causes you a problem, then let this be a lesson to you, I guess, that you can look at that and go, okay, what do I need to work on? What do I need to take to therapy? What do I need to journal about? It's about where you sit on those continua. And whether it causes you a problem. And if so, with my personal development program in my mind, what am I going to do next? What am I going to concentrate on? How am I going to be the best I can be? I think the big five ocean acronym, it could be really useful. It really, really can, to get to know yourself.

Fiona: 33:21

It also has a benefit of understanding other people as well. Because, anybody who's listening might be wondering about somebody that they don't quite get. I don't understand Bert in the office down the corridor. What, what? What's going on with I just don't quite get. Have a look at those traits and think oh We are at different places on that continuum. Doesn't mean you're right and Bert's wrong, but you're at different places. don't want to bring being judgmental into this equation, it's about understanding.

Richard: 33:59

Absolutely, and that's the key. With that understanding can come an acceptance of each other, and with that can come some peace and respect, which makes the world a much better place. Right, we need to wrap up and disappear off for another week. Next week, we will be looking at, what are we doing next week? Oh, it's the one with Lyni where we'll be talking about art therapy. Yes, Lyni is a art therapist, art psychotherapist that lives fairly local to me. If you want to keep in touch with us, you know where we are. We're never a million miles away. There's always a link in the show notes to send us a message and give us some feedback. We're always interested in feedback. Especially if it's nice. Or at least constructive. That'd be lovely. Anyway, we'd better run. You take care, everybody. Speak to you all next week. Bye!

Fiona: 34:49

Bye!