Food & Body Image

In this episode, Richard & Fiona are joined by hypno-psychotherapist Carlie Fairbrother to discuss food relationships, body image, and intuitive eating.

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Another week, another chance to catch up on your favorite therapy nattering podcast. Maybe you're new to the show though, so if so, hello! This is the podcast about things that we take to therapy, the things we take away from therapy, and the things that therapists might do when they think that no one's looking. I'm Richard Nicholls, and as always, my co host Fiona Biddle is here as well. Happy days, Fiona. How you doing?

Fiona: 0:32

good, thanks. How are you?

Richard: 0:34

I'm alright! A bit nippy.

Fiona: 0:36

it is chilly, isn't it?

Richard: 0:37

It is, it's winter now. Well, it's still autumn when we're recording this, but give it a couple of weeks, it's gonna be winter when this comes out, and... Oh, brr. And Christmas!

Fiona: 0:46

it is winter now, because it's beyond November

Richard: 0:50

Even when we're recording

Fiona: 0:51

the 21st is start of

Richard: 0:53

Is that the official point?

Fiona: 0:54

hmm.

Richard: 0:56

Ohhhhhhh. Well, there are no rules, are there? A meteorologist will say one thing, a geologist will say another, and a physicist will say something else. There are no rules. As with many things in life, It doesn't matter, you do what's right for you.

Fiona: 1:11

If you're cold, you're cold. If you're

Richard: 1:12

there are rules. Yeah, absolutely, yes. Somebody emailed me... A couple of days ago asking about, because we talk about breathing a lot on these episodes, don't we, about trying to handle emotional regulation with breathing. And they were talking about the Wim Hof method of, of, of getting freezing cold and seeing what sort of physical and psychological effects that's going to have on you. Am I aware of any research into it to see if it's really that good or not? And I've had a few clients who have embraced it, and liked it, and I've had some that go, No, this was the worst week of my life. So you've got to do what works for you. And I think that's a clever enough segue into the topic we're going to be talking about today. I mean, I did my best there to shoehorn that in.

Fiona: 1:56

it will, it will do just fine as a, as a segue into

Richard: 2:01

Thank you. Please like me. Thank you.

Fiona: 2:03

We all love you, Richard. So we do have a guest today.

Richard: 2:08

Yeah.

Fiona: 2:08

and our guest is Carly Fairbrother,

Carlie: 2:11

Hello.

Fiona: 2:12

is a hypnopsychotherapist, based in Congleton, in Cheshire. works online as well. So anybody who isn't in Congleton, which is probably most people.

Carlie: 2:22

Yes.

Fiona: 2:23

My cat, My cat, came from Congleton.

Carlie: 2:25

Oh,

Richard: 2:26

The Congleton

Fiona: 2:26

Yes, Aristotle. He was abandoned in Congleton and we got him when he was very, very young kitten. Anyway, so that's my thoughts about Congleton. But yeah, so if you're not in Congleton, you will be able to access Carly's services online. So, Carly's here to talk with us all about, eating, and relationship with food, which is a absolutely fascinating topic and as I say that, I am imagining that some of our listeners will be saying, What? Well, I just, I like food, I eat it. but it is a very complicated issue. So, Carly, just give us a little introduction to what your thoughts are on this topic, if you would.

Carlie: 3:15

Yeah, it's, it's a huge issue. And it's it's often so much more complex than we realize, as you know, often when we talk about wanting to change our relationship with food, wanting to lose weight, wanting to get bigger. We have this idea of, you know, or just, don't eat as many calories, exercise more. yet, we kind of, when we're doing that, we often lose touch with, what we actually know about what we like, what we don't like about food. And we were talking before about social media and the impact that that has on, on our relationship with food. And we seem to have come quite a long way when it comes to food. We know that diets don't work. We know that they can be one of the biggest risk factors in terms of putting on weight going on a diet but yet this idea around food rules seems to have just been wrapped up in a different package, it seems to be wrapped up in, you know, healthy eating, and there's still these ideas about this is good food, this is bad food, and just the way that that can impact our relationship with ourselves, our relationships with our bodies, our relationships with the way that we do eat. I guess, you know, I work from a, what I would term a person centred perspective really within an integrative framework. So I bring lots of different approaches into that, but one of the tenets of, of person centred work is really the idea that we are helping clients to get in touch with what they already know. What they know is right for them, what they know feels good to them, and yet, when it comes to eating, it seems that we still look to these kind of big external authorities as to, what's right or wrong and we still think about food as good or bad, and that can kind of sometimes cause the problems because it gets us out of touch with what actually feels good. What food makes me feel good. What food makes me feel energized. What food feels satisfying. And we just sort of follow these rules and, and that can cause a lot of the problems. So when I, when I first started out working as a hypnotherapist, I, I heard on a one of your episodes. I was probably back in the summer when you were talking about Richard, when you were talking about that idea of hypnotherapy being that thing that a lot of people associate with weight loss. And that was really challenging for me when I first started out because I really struggled to find a congruent way of working with this because it almost felt like I was reinforcing the idea that there is a right or a wrong way to eat or there's a right weight to be, and it kind of completely denies the diversity of bodies and the diversity of what those bodies need. so I've kind of moved towards working with an approach called intuitive eating, which is very much about getting rid of all of the rules. And ditching that idea of diet culture, however that is wrapped up, whether that's wrapped up in healthy eating and really just trusting, learning to trust your body again around food, because we have so many stories, don't we, about, about food and what food means to us That sometimes those stories can take over a little bit, and we don't trust ourselves around food. So, I would very much work on that idea of just giving yourself unconditional permission to eat. Because when you give yourself unconditional permission to eat, then it doesn't become quite as attractive. So, an analogy I was talking about before was I have two cats, and so I have Winnie and Albus, and Winnie has been with me since she was a kitten. And Albus is a more recent addition to the family, and he was a street cat before, and just watching them eat is really interesting, so, Winnie has never been without food, she's always known that it is always available, nothing has ever been off limits, and I can give her a really big bowl of food in the morning, And she will continue to graze throughout the day, she'll go out and play, and then she will, you know, come back and have a few nibbles of biscuits, and then she will go out again and have a sleep, and that bowl of food can last all day. Albus street cat. Never really knew where the food was coming so every mealtime is like he's never going to get fed again. And so his appetite is absolutely insatiable he will eat to the point where he makes himself, he would make himself poorly if we didn't take it away from him, and this kind of really fits with what we do when we, you know, when we say, I'm not going to eat this. It's Sunday night, tomorrow, Monday's coming, I'm going to be good, in inverted commas and everything else is going. So of course our bodies are going to be, you know, searching for food, searching, wanting to eat every last morsel because we're terrified that we're not going to get it again. So we just set ourselves up for failure, I think, when it comes to that.

Richard: 7:59

you said earlier on it's well known that diets don't work. And it's easy to push that to one side, and yet in, in, certainly in our profession, having dealt with lots of people with eating problems and food issues and body issues, it's easy for us to know, yeah, diets don't work. All the research has shown it for decades. But I wonder if the public is aware. That actually diets don't work. That if you're gonna, oh, in the, in the way that we use the word diet, of I'm going on a diet for a few months, that is not a long term solution to health. That is only going to make you gain weight in the long run.

Fiona: 8:37

That's the obvious thing, and I still think, I'm not sure that everybody still has got this. If you go on a diet, then you are going to go off it. And when you go off it, you go back to the way that you were eating before. A couple of

Richard: 8:51

The way you were eating before, well, the way you were eating before might have been what made you put the weight on, but also you're damaging metabolic rate and so

Fiona: 8:59

But it might not have been, and this is something that I think is really important to consider. I was working with a supervisee the other day who had a, a client who was significantly overweight. And... I just asked how long did it take your client to put that weight on? And my supervisee, he hadn't checked that. Now, we do not know. I mean, I'm looking forward to hearing on the next session to find this out. But somebody who is, let's say, let's just take a figure, 20 stone. If they've been 20 stone for the last 10 years, then they haven't been putting on any weight in those last 10 years. Therefore, their diet, to use diet correctly, is not the problem. So they need to do something to reduce. To, to go under, so that there's a negative

Richard: 9:53

Calorie deficit, yeah.

Fiona: 9:55

but we, we mustn't just presume that somebody who is overweight, obese, however you want to categorise it, is doing the wrong things now. They might not be. The other thing I wanted to raise Is, you talk about intuitive eating and I, I get that and I mean I, I, no, I live on my own and so most of the time I'm eating on my own. Not all the time. I do have some friends and family and things like that. So I do sometimes see other people. I'm not a complete hermit. most of the time I can go with what my body requires, and I've got quite good at that. So there'll be days when I really just don't want any carbs, for example, and other days when I really do. And when I do, it's lovely. It's a really nice feeling of, oh yeah, I really want some potatoes. It's a great feeling. Also when I was pregnant, I had some cravings. Again, mostly for potatoes. Strange that. But when you are within a family system, that's a lot harder. And I think back to when... Paul McKenna first brought out his book, I Can Make You Thin, or something

Richard: 11:13

I can make you thin, yeah. don't like that title, Paul. No.

Fiona: 11:18

part of the premise of his book was eat what you want when you want it, which is in alignment with this intuitive eating, but if you're, I mean at that time, it's quite a long time ago, I was cooking for my family, I was providing their food and so You can't do that in a family system. So how does, how does, I've put you on the spot here a bit Carly, but

Carlie: 11:45

That's fine!

Fiona: 11:46

You can take it.

Carlie: 11:47

Hmm,

Fiona: 11:48

What do you think?

Carlie: 11:48

you're absolutely right, Fiona, because I think that the concept of Intuitive eating comes from a very privileged position in that, food is always going to be available which of course it's not for some people, but if we take the idea as a whole in terms of just being able to reject the idea of diet mentality or being told what you should and shouldn't eat and get rid of a lot of it's getting, about getting rid of the shame around food because what often happens with that idea of this is the way that I'm going to eat or this, you know, I'm going to follow these particular rules around food. This is good food. This is bad food. As soon as we eat something that's in inverted commas bad, then we become bad. And then that will often start that cycle again in terms of I've fallen off, I've done something bad. So then I will usually eat more food to get rid of that feeling or as a punishment, absolutely. And then we start that cycle again. So of course we can't always be able to eat exactly what our body is telling us, but it's just getting rid of that idea of I can't eat certain foods. It's off limits. And there's some really interesting studies around so they did a study in 1944, and they got a group of, healthy men and had a 12 week period where they observed how they were eating and would adjust their meals so that they were getting a calorie intake that would maintain their weight. And then they went on this... 24 week semi starvation diet, which was just limiting their calorie intakes between 1600 and 1800 calories, which is what you would think of, you know, we often see that in terms of normal diet plans and things. Now, they lost weight at a rate of about two pounds a week which, you know, again is, relatively steady. And then they went on this refeeding period, and they found that by the time they'd reached their initial weight again, they'd put on 140% fat and they, what was really interesting was the psychological and behavioral changes around it. So, they became really defensive around their food in the refeeding period, they became obsessed with food, so they would be collecting recipes, looking at recipe books all the time, talking about food all of the time they became really obsessed with their body image. Some of them later became chefs. Because they would, food just became the central thing within their lives. So as soon as we go into that restriction, just linking in some of what we know about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When we restrict any of those basic physiological needs to any extent of food, then that is going to become the main motivating factor. Whereas if actually I can have... Whatever I want, whenever I want it, I've got to make that choice about, do I actually want it, or am I just wanting it because I'm scared that it's not going to be there, or am I physically hungry, or am I psychologically hungry for love, for connection, for stimulus.

Richard: 14:51

There's a question, there's a question I ask clients that come to me talking about problems they've got with food. It's a simple question and it's just, is there anything else that you're hungry for?

Carlie: 15:05

mm,

Richard: 15:06

And they'll think about it for a few... I mean, some will say, no, this is all about food. But given a little bit of introspection and a bit of thought, sometimes they'll realise there's more going on here. I'm not happy, and I am hungry for something else. I'm hungry for attention, affection, love, job satisfaction, pride, pleasure, self respect, self esteem. Whatever it is they're hungry for, they're looking for a way of getting their needs met. And biologically, the brain just says, Try and find a way of staying alive, then you'll be okay. What do we associate with safety? Find that, do that. And

Fiona: 15:47

And comfort, because

Richard: 15:48

we're

Fiona: 15:49

if we go back to

Carlie: 15:50

mm,

Fiona: 15:51

early days of life, where do we get our comfort? we're held, hopefully, held and cuddled whilst we're feeding. So

Richard: 16:01

Like we were talking about in the attachment

Fiona: 16:03

We were,

Richard: 16:03

a couple of weeks ago,

Fiona: 16:04

but you, you feel

Richard: 16:06

are sucking their thumb in the womb, you know? Because they know, instinctively, before they're even born, I'm supposed to... Get something in my mouth. And that's the strongest species.

Fiona: 16:18

I'd just like to sort of draw out a little bit of what you've both been saying there, the importance of going from the I can have whatever I want, whenever I want it, to the, but do I want it? Do I really want it? Because that, that step is obviously crucial, because if you were just to, with, with no, no bounds to just say whatever you want, whenever you want it. Well, I know personally that wouldn't do me very well. So, it's, it's getting into that mindset of, well, do I want it? What does it do for me? One of the things I'll often say to clients is, let's take chocolate as an example, you know, people who crave chocolate. If you have a piece of chocolate now, in an hour, how do you feel? If you don't have that piece of chocolate now, in an hour, how do you feel? And recognize that there's going to be no difference in how they feel in an hour. So therefore, that enables the choice to be made of not having it now, because it doesn't make any difference. And it's the same sort of

Richard: 17:31

there's always a middle ground, isn't there? Healthy people eat chocolate, they just don't eat an entire bar of it every day, you know?

Fiona: 17:37

but you, it, it just gives you that choice, but then it, that, I was going to go on to, thank you, Richard, to, that you don't, no, it's fine, but you don't have to have, you can have a piece, but you don't have to have the whole bar.

Richard: 17:50

I used to put a Mars bar in the fridge. Until they changed the recipe and just made them Milky Ways. I like the old Mars bars from the 1980s. Put them in the fridge, and with a sharp knife, you just slice an inch off. Even half an inch, just a little bit of it. And just have that. That's what I used to do. Poor working class kid, you know. But they did change the recipe. I saw your face there, Fiona, as if to go, When did they change

Fiona: 18:15

didn't know they

Richard: 18:15

Oh, they did. They did. They turned them into Milky Ways with just a little bit of caramel on the top. I like the old Mars Bars.

Carlie: 18:21

It can be really scary for some people, that idea that you can have what you want when you want it. Because we don't trust ourselves around food often. And that idea of trust, just drawing on what you were talking about, attachment theory. There's also another theory, which is quite interesting when it comes to this innate trust that we have within eating sort of a real kind of underpinning theory within intuitive eating, which was developed by Evelyn Triboli and Elise Resch, and they talk about Eric Erikson's psychosocial stages of development. Now the first stage of development in that is trust versus mistrust. And this is when, you know, we are from birth to, you know, one, one and a half, and we are starting to get a sense of, is the world a safe place? Are people trustworthy? And If we think about all of the sort of bodily functions that we have to do as a baby, you know, a lot of those things we can do on our own, other than eating. And so, when we cry, if, if we are met and someone is attuned to us and they feed us because we're hungry, and then they stop when we're full, we start to get that innate sense of, actually, I can trust my hunger and fullness signals because when I cry someone is coming to me and they're giving me what I need. They're also stopping when I need. But when we put on these sort of quite regimented feeding schedules we stop listening to our hunger and fullness signals at all. And then we start to get all of the rules that start to come in. Which, you know, form, when you've talked about the parent adult child model really form part of that critical parent aspect of, you know, this is what I should do, this is when I should eat, this is what I should be doing, this is good food, this is bad food, this is what I can have when I'm good. And again, we stop listening to actually, am I hungry now? Do I want to eat now? am I full now? What does, what does fullness feel like in my body? So a lot of the things around intuitive eating are really getting in touch with that interoceptive awareness, that awareness of the feelings within our bodies.

Fiona: 20:24

Fairly recently we were talking about the idea of being told to eat everything on your plate. And that sort of goes, the... Other way around. But what that's leading me to think, and earlier what you were saying about being able to say yes to foods, is we also need to be able to say no. I'll use myself again as an example, sorry, but my Ukrainians will often provide food we, we usually do Sunday lunch together and one or other of us will do the main course and one or other of us will do dessert. And they know, now they, they say, oh, little portion for Fiona, with giggles. But I set that up right at the beginning, because I had to. Because, otherwise, you get into that place where you can easily feel that you're being rude and people will often interpreted as being that you are being rude or rejecting them if you say, I only want a small portion, or, no, I don't want any of that, thank you. So, being able to say no to food is really critical as well as being able to say yes,

Carlie: 21:34

Well food's become so many different things to us, hasn't it? It can be a way to show love it can be a way of punishing self, it can be a way of rewarding. So it's, it's really complex when we start digging into what our relationship is with food and all of the voices and all of the stories that we've got around what food means to us. So I often find that when working with relationships with food, it's sort of being able to sift through those stories and really understand where a lot of those voices that we've developed around food and, that relationship with our body as well in that

Richard: 22:09

I think the relationship with our body is such an important one because there's such a lot of shame in culture about not looking right, not looking fit, not looking healthy. And although there is a pushback, but as with every pushback, there are people that then dig deeper into their previous beliefs and will be even more critical about somebody. How dare they show that model on that TV advert? She's overweight. She shouldn't be modelling those clothes. Is that what you really think? Genuinely? Where did that come from? That you can only model underwear or clothes or anything. If you are underweight, that makes no sense, but you go back to the 90s I think it was Kate Moss that said, nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.

Carlie: 23:11

Mmm.

Richard: 23:13

I wonder if she regrets saying that now, these years later, because I've got goosebumps about that phrase. That makes me feel quite unwell that that mentality existed for so many people, girls particularly, watching that, growing up with that. Oh, what did we do?

Fiona: 23:34

But there's a, there's a, really big flaw in that argument, as in, taste is in the moment. And skinny is, well, timeless in a sense, so the two do not compare.

Carlie: 23:48

And there's also this idea that there is one body shape that is desirable, that, or that should be desirable in that. And it's, you know, often a lot of these narratives are wrapped up in health. And you know, we look at somebody's body mass as if that's a determinant of their overall health. And we know that there are so many different influences in terms of how physically and psychologically healthy someone is. And we don't, you know, when we look at someone's body mass and use that as something to push them into the idea of, well, you need to lose weight in order to be healthy. We kind of deny there the idea that actually the stress of poor body image. And the impact that that can have, the stress of being discriminated against in terms of not fitting into what is considered to be an ideal within society. And again, there was a really interesting study that they did around this, around intuitive eating and the idea of health at every size. So in 2006, they, they took a group of obese women. And one group they put on a traditional diet plan and the other group they put into a health at every size group. So the traditional diet plan were told to count calories, were told to exercise more, and then the health at every size group were told to eat when they were hungry. No food was off limits. It was just eat until you feel satisfied and you feel full. Eat in ways that you feel are nutritious. Move in a way that feels good. And they were also supported in terms of building their confidence about how they felt about their bodies there and then.. And then they followed these women for two years. After six months, some of the women in the diet group had lost weight. But after two years, they'd put it back on. All women weighed the same. Pretty much. But the really interesting thing was that the women in the Health at Every Size group had lower blood pressure, had lower cholesterol levels, were more physically active and felt better about their bodies. So this idea that weight can tell us anything about someone's overall health status, it just doesn't really ring true and there are so many other factors that we need to consider in that.

Richard: 26:06

And with that bit of education that you can be healthy at any size, hopefully we can get rid of some of the shame that people carry about being bigger. It's quite obvious from all the studies that have been done over the years, if you can release some of the stress that's going on in your life, you're going to feel better. That's no, that's no secret. I don't think that's a surprise to anybody. But the idea that, well, if I reduce my stress, I'm gonna reduce my blood pressure. Yes, you are. Oh, okay, that's gonna actually affect my blood sugar. Well, actually, yeah, it is. You know, it's, there's gonna be a lot of effects that go on within your body when you're not quite so hateful towards yourself. And we know from lots of studies that for a lot of people, not absolutely everybody, because every body is different, for many, when stressed, the body goes into some, looks at the fight or flight response and goes, Okay, times are difficult. I don't know what it is that's difficult, but I need to do some sort of protecting. And one of the things it does is stores fat, in case one of the reasons why there's stress is that the crops didn't come this year, so we need to store some fat just in case, which is only going to make things worse. So stress plays a big part in being physically as well as mentally healthier. And... Unfortunately, in a lot of culture, being big, being overweight, has put a lot of shame on people, a lot of abuse, which then is stressful. And if somebody's embarrassed about walking down the street just because of the way they look, then that needs to change. Because no matter why somebody says that... We recognize that that's not fair. If somebody says, But I'm black in a majority white town, I feel really uncomfortable when I walk down the street. Well, that's not fair! Correct! Nobody should be put in that position. Well, it's easy for me to say, and I'm hoping everybody sings from the same hymn sheet. But, apparently not. Apparently there are some people that say, My eyes are offended by your shape, and that is your fault, not my prejudice. It's you that's the problem. No, mate, it's really not, it's you. Sorry.

Carlie: 28:25

And it's, it's so sad to hear people say, I'll feel better when I'm this size. I'll be okay with myself when I lose that weight. And that is, and that's akin to, you know, saying to a close family friend, I'll love you when you're this size, I'll respect you when you fit into this item of clothing. And, you know, for the majority of us, I say the majority, we would never say that. So that idea of I, I can only feel good about myself, I'm only able to accept myself when this

Fiona: 29:05

I'm going to, I'm going to challenge you a bit

Carlie: 29:07

Oh, go on.

Fiona: 29:09

you wouldn't say it. Do you think there's a part of any of us who might think it

Richard: 29:17

Well, of course.

Fiona: 29:19

others?

Carlie: 29:19

mm

Richard: 29:21

There'll be some internalized prejudice, yeah. And as with, as with any prejudice, If we're not aware of that message that was given to us through, through society, through culture that we've internalized, if we reject it and go, oh, no, no, no, I'm not prejudiced. Well, using racism as an example again, if people don't recognize that racism exists... Then they can't deal with their own internalized racism. And that is the same for any prejudism. We have to acknowledge that maybe there's a part of us that might look at somebody who's overweight and think you have less value. That if this was the philosophical trolley experiment, with the, you know, you pull the lever and, you know, who did you kill? Those two people? Or that one person when you pull the lever, you know, your choice. What do you do? Well, maybe I'll kill the bigger person because they have less value. And I think until people sit down and think through their prejudices, we don't make changes. But it hurts. It's painful to do that.

Fiona: 30:27

There's an element of this in that any of us, well almost any of us, have the potentiality to be obese. Whereas the three of us sitting here as white people, we can never experience being a black person walking down the street in a predominantly white town. That's not something that can be us. Now, I mean, there can be times when white people have experienced prejudice, but you'd have to pretty much go out of your way from where we are sitting to experience that. But, so, there's an element to add into that of the fear of what if that was me.

Richard: 31:08

And the victim mentality. That if I can blame you for your obesity, then you're in control of it and it's not something that I need to fear. Because if it's your fault, then it's controllable and I'm protected. And I think people do go through that mentality.

Carlie: 31:26

And that kind of brings us back to, when we're talking about that critical parent voice of being able to work out what our own stuff is around that and work out what those messages are'Cos as therapists, we have to be able to work through that because there was a story those of you who have read anything around Irvin Yalom I don't know whether you remember there was that story that he was working with

Richard: 31:48

Oh, Loves Executioner. Yeah, that was an awkward chapter, that was.

Carlie: 31:52

and he was working with a, client who was obese and he felt really uncomfortable with it and he thought that she didn't pick up on it, but she absolutely did. she said at the end, she said, you know, I knew you couldn't look at me. And, if we're bringing that idea into the room, then, anyone who has, experienced any kind of discrimination around their weight will be really attuned to that discomfort. So, going back to what you said, Fiona, about those internal thoughts of, you know, maybe we wouldn't say it, but maybe we might think it. Often it is coming from our own fears and our own critical parent voice of what is acceptable. And I'm not sat here saying that it's easy because it's a real challenge because we're constantly bombarded with images of what's appropriate, online. What's, acceptable?

Fiona: 32:43

So one of the things that struck me as we've been talking is the element of choice that people have, or perhaps don't have, about this whole area of eating and weight. Size. We all start with a basic body and there are limits to what we can do with that. I'm never going to be a basketball player. It's, you know, it's just not likely to happen being five foot tall, if that, because I think I've shrunk. And width wise as well, we come with certain parameters that we are working within. But within that, people do have choices, and they have choices on a day to day basis as an overall basis as to what they, what they can do with their bodies, how they can make it. you know, things like disabilities might, restrict what can be done. But there, there are choices there, aren't there? And then, in terms of what you eat, when you eat, how much you eat. We all have choices. We need to be able to determine why we say yes, why we say no, and, to be able to make those choices for the short term and the long term. And that, to me, feels really quite... Positive, quite exciting that, that potentiality is there

Richard: 34:08

as long as people recognise that they deserve to be able to make those choices. And I think that, certainly in the therapy room, and I know our world is not the whole world, but people come to therapy to help with their weight, and also to bring a lot of baggage in their head with them, and a lot of it is. I don't deserve to become healthier anyway. I don't deserve anybody's attention or affection. And maybe there's some traumas that go along with it that means they're frightened of the attentions. That can sometimes happen. But that's for a whole new episode. that sense of, what am I entitled to? What do I deserve? And if they've had a lifetime of shame, then they've maybe been taught internally and by the external world that they don't deserve to be happy and healthy. And I want everybody to realise that they do! Everybody deserves to be happy and as healthy as they can be. Right! Hey, we need to finish off. Look at the time! Goodness me. Right, if anybody's got any questions they'd like to send us, please do. In the description of the episode you will see there's a link to a page on my website. Click it, fill in a form, give us a question, give us a topic idea, tell us something, we want to hear from you. And we'll talk about it at some point in the next few weeks, I'm sure. Have a super week, everybody. See you next time.

Fiona: 35:29

Thank you for nattering with us, Carly. Thank

Richard: 35:31

Sorry.

Carlie: 35:34

you.

Richard: 35:35

Bye now, everybody.

Fiona: 35:36

Bye

Richard: 35:37

Bye!