Buddhism & Unconditional Friendliness

It's guest week.
Richard & Fiona have an old friend Bill Hard to join them this week to talk about his Buddhist experiences.

https://www.dayandnighttherapy.com/bill-hard/

You can also find more about Bill's and other's work at the Monroe Institute in their app https://info.monroeinstitute.org/get-expand-app

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Good day to you all! It's Therapy Natters time! If you're new here, come on in! The water's lovely! It's warm, and strangely soft and magical, and it doesn't matter how deep you go, you always seem to be able to breathe even easier than before. I'm Richard Nicholls, and fellow psychotherapist Fiona Biddle joins me as always! Hello, Fiona. What's going on with you today? I

Fiona: 0:33

that was a very nice little metaphor that you introduced us with today. I like that.

Richard: 0:39

things together, I was thinking about that in advance.

Fiona: 0:43

Well, I'm impressed. It was very nice.

Richard: 0:46

Well, I was thinking about water and warmth and magical and stuff and I thought, yeah, you can't breathe in water. That's why it's magical. But breathing is so important. We'd be stuffed without it.

Fiona: 1:01

But you can in your imagination, and that's the joy of imagination. We can breathe underwater in our imagination. We can go into space in our imagination. We can do anything.

Richard: 1:11

Mm, it's a great place to be. And I think breathing as well. It's both an underused topic of conversation and overused. No, what am I meaning by that? I think it's undervalued. People talk about it a lot for a reason, the importance of breathing. And They don't always say why.

Fiona: 1:29

seem to be talking about it a lot on this series of Strictly, and I don't remember it before, but they keep saying to various contestants, Breathe, please, breathe! them saying before, but it's a theme this year. They might have said it before and I didn't notice, but I have

Richard: 1:49

The first time somebody ever said to me, Breathe, breathe, was when I was, I was just messing about at work 30 years ago, and there was a group of blokes and we were all practicing chin ups on some machinery or something to see who could do the most on some Friday afternoon when we were bored in this warehouse, and I wasn't breathing. I was holding my breath and then hooking myself up and wasn't breathing, wasn't getting oxygen into my body and into my muscles that made the muscles work. And it wasn't until I trained as a therapist about five years later that I went, oh, breathing. We're supposed to do that, aren't we? And

Bill: 2:30

Ha ha ha ha

Richard: 2:31

I think that brings us on to a little bit, I think, slightly related, onto our topic for today, I think.

Fiona: 2:38

Well, we will see. But we have a guest with us today. We have William Hard, who we call Bill, who is based in Tavistock. He's a therapist but works exclusively online these days, as many of us do. He's got some really interesting stuff to share with us, but just about him one of the things he was telling us earlier that he does is he's involved with the Monroe Institute. Some of you will remember we did an episode of Therapy Natters with Luigi Schiambarella a few months ago. And Luigi's also with the Monroe Institute and they look at using sound tech to explore expanded consciousness. So, remember Luigi was talking about lucid dreaming and there is an app, so anybody who's interested in this sort of stuff, there is a Monroe Institute app. So anyway, welcome Bill, lovely to see you again after quite a long time since I last saw you.

Bill: 3:37

Yeah, it's been a while. Nice to be here.

Richard: 3:41

Am I right? I'm not sure if I'm misremembering this, but When we were working together years ago, you mentioned something about being a Buddhist at one point. Did I dream that?

Bill: 3:54

no you didn't. I was an ordained sort of like a Buddhist minister for about 20 years and I ran a Buddhist center for a decade of that. 20 years in Bristol,

Richard: 4:07

Amazing!

Bill: 4:08

so, I'm not an ordained Buddhist now, but I was then yeah, so no, you didn't dream it, that was true, That's how I came I came from that, more or less straight to hypnosis and hypnotherapy and all of that.

Richard: 4:23

Is there a crossover between that Buddhist philosophy and the Western philosophical slash psychological work?

Bill: 4:33

Well, there is, I mean, I suppose the big thing that everybody knows about is mindfulness. You know, that was, that was the big thing. and, that's not always well handled in, in my opinion. I think in the nineties Buddhism was the flavor of the month for a while, you know, it was a new, it was a fairly new thing and it was seen as something that was quite rational and, you know, kind of method based rather than belief. So, I mean, that's part of the attraction. And, yeah, there are lots of crossovers in a way. I still draw a lot from Buddhist teaching. But, as a hypnotist, some of the framing I'm not so happy with, I think framing life as a problem to be solved

Richard: 5:21

Yeah,

Bill: 5:23

create quite a lot of difficulties, which a lot of spiritual traditions do.

Richard: 5:27

I remember when my son did a small work experience placement in a primary school. There was a... A lesson where the teacher was talking about Buddhism and one of the children, these are like six year olds, started to cry. Was quite upset that one of the big concepts of it is that suffering is inevitable. And they didn't like that.

Bill: 5:49

yes,

Richard: 5:49

And, no, I don't like that either, actually. I mean, it's true! You can't be human without having some sort of, suffering.

Bill: 5:57

it's sort of true, but it's the Four Noble Truths, which is a kind of foundation of Buddhism, are basically an ancient Indian medical formula for treating disease. So there's suffering, there's a cause of suffering, there's a path to the end, and there's the ending of suffering, kind of thing. And that, I mean, yeah, it's, it's fine. Actually, the word suffering, the word that they're using is dukkha, which means more like, unsatisfactoriness.

Richard: 6:29

Oh.

Bill: 6:30

So it's not, so

Richard: 6:32

How did that get translated into suffering?

Bill: 6:35

Well, because a lot of the early Buddhist texts were translated by Jesuits,

Richard: 6:41

Oof. Ah.

Bill: 6:42

essentially. So they bring their own, translations bring their own cultural baggage, right?

Richard: 6:48

Yeah.

Bill: 6:49

It's more the idea that because everything's in process, you know, there are no fixed things that if you grasp at anything, you'll never be satisfied because that thing's going to change, it's going to morph, it's going to pass away. So there was an idea of you know, even when you get the Ferrari or you get the whatever it is. then, you know, you're in a state of a different place then, and you might not find that satisfying in a lasting way. Um, if you want to put a positive frame on it, and there are Buddhist teachings that put a positive frame. There's one where you talk about, well, suffering is the opportunity for faith, or confidence would be a better term. And from that arises rapture, and from that arises bliss, and so on, in a more positive kind of chain. Because like unsatisfactoriness implies That you can sense the possibility of more, if you see what I mean. Like that, the of more potential. So if you can relax in that space and be happy where you are, but eager for what's to come, they're not such a problem. Which is one of the reasons why I don't like some of the framings because it becomes a piece of kind of cultural hypnosis, if you like, of Well life is suffering and that's it. You go, you know, what else are you gonna do?

Richard: 8:11

Just suffer. And you feel the suffering and that leads, if we're not careful, to hopelessness and helplessness. And that's not the point!

Bill: 8:20

do. Yeah.

Fiona: 8:22

And just

Bill: 8:22

like

Fiona: 8:23

just that word suffer has such a... A connotation that it doesn't need to have, because the technical definition is really to experience or just go through something. But it doesn't, it doesn't have to be something terrible.

Bill: 8:40

Yeah,

Fiona: 8:40

I, I I suffered that train journey which, which got held up. You know, it's, it's not, it doesn't have to be awful.

Bill: 8:49

If you go back to the Sanskrit... It literally means a wheel with a flat spot.

Richard: 8:54

Oh!

Bill: 8:54

So it's that kind of... that's... So it's that idea that there's always going to be something that jars. What stance you take to that makes all the difference. So like, um, there's always going to be pain. Right? this is, where a lot of therapists would see this, a very Buddhist perspective. If you drop a hammer on your foot, you're going to have pain. But the story you tell about that creates suffering. Oh, why now? Why me? Why am I always so clumsy? Oh God, that is creating suffering as distinct from the pain of you dropped a hammer on your foot, you know, that's gonna hurt.

Richard: 9:40

the modern, popular equivalent of that in the UK, certainly in the Western world, would maybe be acceptance therapy. That we have to accept that these things, it doesn't mean they're acceptable, that you drop the hammer on your toe. Don't do it if there's a choice, you wouldn't wish for it, but you have to accept that it happened. And without that acceptance, all you do is carry on suffering.

Bill: 10:04

yeah, so for me, when I'm teaching meditation, I prefer the term allowing. So, allowing things to be as they are. In other words, not being in reaction to how things are, at least not staying in reaction, because we're human after all. because acceptance has a tinge of resignation to me. You know, again, like, oh well, there we go, that's just me, isn't it that's what I can expect and it's like, well, you are where you are, and unless you're in a kind of receptive mode, then there's no possibility of a creative response to it. That's the way I would frame it. So when I'm teaching meditation, I talk about three things really, that you allow things to be as they are, and then understand that whatever you give your attention to, you will cultivate. So whatever you focus on is going to grow in your experience. And then explore, get curious and see whether you actually want to cultivate what you are cultivating

Richard: 11:02

Sounds like a combination of acceptance therapy, solution focused therapy and person centered counseling.

Bill: 11:11

Well, one of the crossovers, I suppose, that I remember when I was, I was training to get ordained and I was working in the health service as a trainer. And I read on Becoming a Person by Carl Rogers. And he started talking about unconditional positive regard, right? And in Buddhism there's a... concept of metta or maitri in Sanskrit, which is often translated as unconditional loving kindness. But it's clearly in the same sort of space. So these days I tend to talk about unconditional friendliness, because love is so loaded, once you add loving into it, it's like, all right, unconditional love for the entire of creation. Right?

Richard: 12:03

sounds like a lot of work, doesn't

Bill: 12:05

It's a bit of, feels like a bit of a tall order and so there was an idea that, metta or maitri had the desire for the well being of its object, But was unconditional, I mean, there was a traditional parable that the Buddha... used to tell, apparently. On the basis of metta, if you were captured by bandits, I suppose that used to happen in India, 2, 500 years ago they said we're gonna kill one of you and let the rest of you go. But on the basis of your metta, you wouldn't be able to tell, you wouldn't be able to choose between your enemy, a neutral person, a friend, or yourself. You might be able to make a logical choice, But in terms of how you felt about people, you wouldn't be able to choose. So I prefer to talk about it these days in terms of unconditional friendliness.

Richard: 12:57

Mmm.

Bill: 12:58

Because when you start talking about love, and I think this is true for unconditional positive regard even as well, that can seem like a pretty tall order, right? And you can

Richard: 13:09

to strive for, isn't it, but it's not

Bill: 13:11

yeah, you

Richard: 13:12

Yeah.

Bill: 13:13

can make it into this big, gooey emotion, you know, and what I say to people is it's much more like, you stood at a bus stop and there's someone at the other side of the road and you just smile at them, and it just feels nice. There's just that friendliness, just that. It's that. That's what, it's there, you know, focus there. If you stay there, then that develops. And so, and then, you know, some, you can have A big experience of, but that's really not the point, so that, you know, when you do the meditation practice, what I always used to say is like, so in a traditional meditation practice you would you would start with yourself. So you would evoke this kind of feeling for yourself, so you might remember a time. So if it sounds like self hypnosis, it's because it is. Bhavana. Bhavana means making to become. That's a kind of meditation. So, well, you think about what you do, you might imagine or remember a time when you felt really good.

Richard: 14:21

Oh,

Bill: 14:22

You might, you might use an image like a flower in the middle of your heart. You might imagine, yeah, does this sound familiar?

Richard: 14:30

very familiar to

Bill: 14:31

visual metaphor stuff? Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And then you would... Introduce in to that a friend, and preferably you know, in the beginning of the practice you'd choose someone you weren't particularly sexually attracted to. Someone who's a peer, so that you don't get into a different kind of space. Not that there's anything wrong with

Richard: 14:55

There's a time and a place, isn't there, for those sorts of

Bill: 14:57

there's a time and a place for those sorts of things. Yeah, exactly. So, and then you would go to a neutral person. Like, somebody you bought a paper off, or, just saw in a shop. You knew them, but you didn't know them. And you would just reflect, well, you know, may they be well, happy, just because they exist, really. And then you would go to an enemy. Right? And this could be just, sometimes the friend and the enemy of course can be the same person. Just different aspects of the same person. And you can do all these stages as aspects of yourself as well, if you see what I mean. So you could choose a part of yourself that you like, and a part of yourself that you don't

Richard: 15:41

Well, I wonder if... As a side effect of putting that loving, not loving kindness, there's that old phrase again, but that, that, that, that kindness out, you are sending a message that says no matter what you are lovable, despite any flaws or failings, You are lovable. And if you can do that for everybody else out there, that sends a message that people are lovable, which is maybe a message that wasn't there in our formative years, and we can catch up and feel lovable ourselves.

Bill: 16:18

And then the fifth stage would be, you'd equalize the feeling between the four. As best you could. And then everybody in the room, everybody in the building, and on and on through all times. Limits of your imagination kind of thing. And traditionally, there were all kinds of benefits that were supposed to come with this, like, not being attacked by wild animals. Which was quite good if you were a forest monk.

Richard: 16:45

It's a bold claim.

Bill: 16:46

You know,

Fiona: 16:48

Yes,

Bill: 16:48

was a bold claim, but it seemed to work.

Fiona: 16:51

interesting.

Bill: 16:51

But I've not tested it.

Richard: 16:55

Well, it hasn't worked that well for some of the priests that went into some of the untouched tribes, and it never seemed to come out.

Bill: 17:02

yeah, there is a tradition of forest monks that it did seem to work quite well for. And a lot of them lived for decades, in the forest where there were tigers and stuff. But be that as it may The way I would often frame it is like, a reclaiming of your own power as well. So you're not going to give anyone else the ability to take you into a negative space, into a hateful space. You know, the Buddhist metaphor for hatred, is holding on to a red hot coal to throw at someone else. You don't really want to do that.

Richard: 17:44

Yeah.

Bill: 17:45

That's not good. and often in the West, the stage that people would really struggle with is the first stage. That would be, well, I can't do that. You know, they could do it for a friend, but they couldn't do it for themselves. So, when I'm teaching it these days, I usually start with a friend, right? Because it's just, just, and then include yourself in that, if you see what I mean. But I used to talk about it as like retraining your emotional habits. When you go to the enemy, for example, and you might use a phrase like, may they be well, and you know, part of you goes, well, maybe they'll be well roasted. You know, and it's okay, it's alright, it's alright, it's alright, it's okay, just come back and Yeah, go back to the friend if necessary, just re establish and it becomes a sort of crucible for releasing that stuff. And then, you know, may they be happy, even if it's on another continent and I never see them again, it's like, yeah, I'm just not going to let them make me feel bad. Every time an awareness of them arises, so that would be one of the ways I kind of frame that. But the way I think about this metta mitre or whatever you want to call it, unconditional friendliness, is it's actually an aspect of our kind of true nature. You know, it's like if you stop doing other stuff, it's just there, which is why you often experience it when there's nothing particularly going on you're not trying to do anything and you just see a friendly face and you smile and boom there it is because it's kind of intrinsic it's not really something you have to produce it's something you have to allow to be if you see what i mean you just have to allow it to kind of be and then there's an idea where the four dimension things come from well when that Energy, if you like, or that emotion hits suffering, you get compassion, you know, so that compassion is what happens when you're in that space, and you witness someone else's suffering, and if you witness someone else's joy... Then you get what they call mudita, sympathetic joy. So you know, you resonate with this

Richard: 20:11

Mm. The emotional

Bill: 20:13

that. yeah, and then also you get when you can sort of hold a person in awareness, you've got this unconditional friendliness towards them. You can witness their suffering and you can witness their joy. The fourth dimension is translated as equanimity, which is a little clumsy in a way, because that's a fairly new word, you know, it's only a couple hundred years old even in the English language. So, there's an idea in Buddhism as well of near and far enemies. with, compassion, the far enemy would be hatred, right? The near enemy is something that looks a bit like it, but isn't. And so they call that horrified anxiety.

Fiona: 21:02

Oh,

Bill: 21:04

oh, Richard, oh, oh, you know, that kind of smothering. And equanimity is just being able to hold the space in a way, again, you're back to allowing someone to be just as they are, so there's a sense of the whole person, you know, you've got this friendliness, you can see the suffering, you can see the joy, and you kind of rest in the space where you're kind of holding space for them, if that makes sense.

Fiona: 21:30

so just sort of, how do, when you've witnessed somebody or experienced somebody behaving in a way that you internally would designate as bad behavior,

Bill: 21:43

Yeah.

Fiona: 21:44

where do you put that on this? How do you separate that out? Or do you?

Bill: 21:51

Well, yeah, I mean, you can still do that, it's not about liking, necessarily, or approving, so you have this essential friendliness, and then you can see within that, actually someone's behaving badly. If you see what I mean, they're behaving in a way that's violent or aggressive or something like that. And because you're included in this unconditional friendliness, that wouldn't mean that you would have to put up with that. but in fact, quite the opposite. It would make you, empower you to be more assertive and say, well, I love you very much, but no, that's not acceptable. Do you see what I mean? So it's not about overriding any Any kind of critical thinking about the way a person's behaving.

Fiona: 22:46

seems to me to be sort of two levels to this. There's the level that's going on within you, so your own feelings about that other person and your unconditional friendliness towards them, and then an expression of that. And... in Western culture, expressing unconditional friendliness can, be looked on as if you're a bit odd. but I guess it's about a balance of the feeling within the self, the expression of it within The cultural norms, pushing them a little bit, but the ability to balance that with appropriate expression of our own personal beliefs about a behavior.

Bill: 23:36

Indeed. And you're right, it can get, I mean, I can remember one time I was, I'd been leading a day retreat, you know, on this meditation practice. And at the time, I lived in a quite rough area of Bristol, and so I was walking home and I was pretty happy, and there were these three big lads walking towards me, and then they said, you uh, you smiling at me? I was like, and I said, yeah. And they said, why? I said, well, because I'm a really nice guy. And they just walked off. They were completely confused by that. And just like, five minutes later, I'm walking along and I'm watching this guy tend to his garden. And I get the same thing. He says, What you looking at? It's like I was just admiring your work. And he was like, oh, I do it all myself, you know. So, you can criticise someone's behaviour, or you can, you know. In fact, I used to, when I was teaching a lot of assertiveness, I used to use it as a basis, you know, it's like, this is the space you need to be in, in order to get past your own limbic system, as it were, your own reactivity, your own discomfort, and just be very clear. And have a very clear message and be able to give very clear feedback about someone else's behaviour and what his impact is on you, if you see what I mean. It's what people need to be able to evaluate their own behavior fairly and reasonably, Because if, their value as a human is dependent upon their behaviour, then this is what I need to be true. But, if that sense of good will and, and self love and self care is independent, then they're much more able to go, actually you know Richard, yeah. That was, yeah, that was off. Yeah, I shouldn't have behaved like that. Do you see what I mean? They're able to own

Richard: 25:44

yeah, if we can learn by not judging others, then we learn to let go of judgement of ourselves.

Bill: 25:52

And both ways around. So in the assertiveness, which eventually became this program I do for Monro now called Authentic Connection. if you tell someone they're being aggressive, all you're doing is telling them what you believe about their behaviour. You actually haven't specified a behaviour yet, right? But if I say, well, you know, when you stand six inches in front of me and you wave your finger in my face, I feel really uncomfortable and, you know, and it has these kind of consequences. And really to get good at that, you have to start with yourself as well. You know, I often say to people, you know, I bet if you see someone else, say you're working in an office together, And someone just drops their coffee all over the keyboard, fries the keyboard. You see someone else do that, you're probably not going to go up to them and go, you idiot, you moron, what were you thinking? Oh, christ it'd be cheaper to train a chimp, wouldn't it?? But you'd probably speak to yourself like that, do you see what I mean? You'd probably talk to you like that, and it's like... Ah, okay, you can't get past your own judgments, but you can soften them after and what actually happened,

Fiona: 27:10

Yes, because to somebody else you're likely to say, oh dear, oh, never mind, it'll be all right, we'll sort it out. But you don't say that to

Bill: 27:18

yeah, exactly. Let me help you with that, Fiona.

Fiona: 27:21

Yeah.

Bill: 27:22

Hang on, I'll get something. That unconditionality allows for more clarity, if you see what I mean, because you're not as invested in an outcome, which comes back to that basic point about allowing things to be as they are. I mean, you know, that's a lot of the stuff we work with, right? The clients, you know, judgement of themselves, you know, inability to, forgive someone, all of those kinds of issues, this sort of stuff comes into, but it is, as you were saying Fiona, it's not always culturally allowed, you have to learn to express it well,

Fiona: 28:00

And with the, you know, the word judgment, we have the judgment of the self, judgment of others, and the fear, concern of others judging us. So... it's a complicated business, isn't it? And I'm sure I've said this here before, but something I often say to clients is nobody has the right to judge you, but they will anyway,

Richard: 28:26

mm,

Fiona: 28:27

because that's what we do. And, you know, even if we are cultivating an unconditional friendliness, we still have the innate judginess first. Do we not? Or can you get to the point where that doesn't happen? No, I think that's probably a bit too much to expect. We have the first impression, don't we?

Bill: 28:50

I think, as long as you've got a mind, that's, going to happen to, to some degree. I mean, I remember reading years and years ago, I think it was interactionist psychology saying that in the 24th of a second of meeting someone for the first time, you've done a rough personality profile, how attracted you might be probable occupation and what their voice should sound like. No, you've got no chance of not making a judgment, but you can change your relationship to those judgments and see them. It's just that you've got a healthy, mammalian brain that's designed to find threats and opportunities, you know, so it's going, it's going to do that long before your conscious personality's got any chance

Richard: 29:35

threats and opportunities,

Bill: 29:37

but

Fiona: 29:37

on both of those sides of the equation, whether that's you recognising your own judge mentality and also recognising that other people are going to be judging you, then you can do something with it.

Bill: 29:52

Yeah. and also, you know, one of the things I, when I'm teaching this, I encourage is well, of course people react. You react, right? We react, so just, so what, you know, so cut them a bit of slack, you know.

Richard: 30:11

yeah,

Bill: 30:11

misjudged you, big deal, you know, because often when, you know, it's about them,

Richard: 30:18

yeah, if somebody's got anger issues, I hear people took, get, I hear people complain about being cut up on the motorway, bad drivers and things like that, and they'll talk about them in therapy sometimes'cos they say I don't want to feel this annoyed all the time. And we have to explore when we look at people speeding or changing lanes without signalling, and I ask, I wonder if... You've ever done that? Because I think of myself as a good driver, but I know there must have been occasions where I've changed lanes without signalling. Gone a bit fast, I've been on, I think, three speed awareness courses over the last 25 years. I'm not going to do it, that's it, I'm not doing any more, that's it, I've made a commitment to myself, no more speed awareness courses. But I can't go on 3 speed awareness courses over 20 odd years, and then judge somebody else for driving too fast. We do. We do.

Fiona: 31:17

Oh, I'm judging you terribly, Richard. because I've never been on one. But,

Richard: 31:23

No, you probably won't now, because we're all much better drivers

Fiona: 31:26

Well, because I'm, I'm old and slow, you mean. Um, No, it's, it's, I know what you meant. No, I'm, I know I'm lucky. And that's the thing, we, you know, as drivers, yes, we all make mistakes things happen. I went through a red light a while ago, I know I did I was sure I was going to get a ticket, I was absolutely horrified, mortified I didn't, It was a mistake. I got puzzled as to what the lights were on this really complicated roundabout, and I just got it wrong. everybody will make mistakes, but yes, I mean, I, I, I'm fairly confident there would have been at least... drivers yelling at me for this.

Richard: 32:10

Yeah, and thinking you did it on purpose, that you're entitled. Look at this selfish woman who thinks she owns the road. And that

Fiona: 32:17

in my little, in my little fiesta. Yeah.

Richard: 32:20

Oh, it's always the Fiesta drivers. It's only one step away from an XR2,

Bill: 32:24

the worst. Yeah. I use that same mantra, Richard, I just I try and say, I do that,

Richard: 32:32

Yeah,

Bill: 32:33

I do that. when someone

Richard: 32:35

Yeah.

Bill: 32:37

does it to me, it's like, yeah, I do that. Sometimes it's a bit late coming in. I have to calm down first.

Fiona: 32:45

But that's actually a really, really interesting point. It's a bit late coming in, but it came in

Bill: 32:51

Mindfulness is, you know, actually designed to give you an experience of selflessness, there's a teaching in Buddhism that there is no self. And that is a very useful teaching if you understand it. But often people don't. And, what it's really saying is that you are not your ideas about yourself and in a sense you can never know yourself because you're always in process, you know, that's why we need friends and feedback but that you mistake how you think about you. You mistake your self concept, you think there's actually an entity that corresponds to your self concept. And so you're always trying to square that circle, and you never can, You have a kind of individuality, for sure, you have that but that can never really be an object in your consciousness, in the way that a cup is, but that's what we try to do, we try to make it an object, you know, consciousness. And so, you need that unconditional friendliness to be mindful, if you see what I mean. Otherwise it turns into some weird kind of self policing exercise, where you're, you're, you're kind of hyper aware and often quite judgmental. about what you're aware of, even though we all know that you're not supposed to be judgmental, it's non judgmental awareness and all of that. if you work cognitively with people, it's like, well, what are the thoughts that are, the story that's giving rise to the problem? But don't beat yourself up for having a story because everybody's got a story. Some of the sort of non dual teachers, their story is just that they haven't got a story, but it's just another bloody story, right? I mean, you can't not have a story. If you've got a brain and a mind, you're going to have a story, that's what we do. But it's like the difference between creating a story that's a definition And creating a story that's expressive of something that you're uncovering and kind of evolving within yourself, if you see what I mean.

Richard: 35:04

Bill. What an absolutely fascinating subject it really is, and obviously Buddhism and its practices and teachings has been around for so long. There are so many books, and if some of the things that Bill has been speaking about today has captured your interest, go and have a deep dive, go and have a delve, because there is... There is an internet out there. It's a fairly new thing, but there's a lot of information. Go and use it. Go and fall down a Wikipedia, YouTube rabbit hole. There is so much that you can soak up and see what can improve the way that you think and feel and behave as well, as an offshoot. Fiona, you look as if you've got a last bit of something to add.

Fiona: 35:47

I was just going to thank Bill. That's really what I wanted to do. So, it's been lovely to see you and to hear what you have to say. It's been great. So

Richard: 35:55

Yeah, thanks, Bill. Lovely to see you. Because it's been a couple of three years. Well, it was before, I saw you briefly just before COVID at a conference. But, it, it, it, I've slept since then. And, you know, I want to see all these people all the time. We just can't, unfortunately, can we? But I'm happy in accepting that. Right! Let's go for another week. Yes, I shall allow that. It's a pleasure, an absolute pleasure, Bill. So everybody, I'll love you and leave you. Have a super one. If you need anything, there's a link in the show notes. We'll throw a few things into the description as well about what Bill's been up to in the Monroe app as well. It'll be quite interesting. Go and have a look at that. And if you've got any questions... There's a link in the description there, with a form on the website. Ask us a question, give us a topic idea, give us something to talk about, and we'll be back next week, and we will! So, have a good one, see you next time. Bye everybody!

Fiona: 36:48

Bye.