Apathy

This week it's all about Apathy. That feeling where you have no interest and no energy for one reason or another.
Let's have a little look shall we?

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Greetings to you all podcast fans. Welcome to the Therapy Natters podcast series. The podcast where two psychotherapists answer your questions or natter away about therapy related stuff on the off chance that it helps you to be nudged in a better direction, possibly improving your mental health along the way. Hi, Fiona, how are you doing today?

Fiona: 0:33

Oh, I'm all right, I suppose.

Richard: 0:35

I knew you were gonna do that. I knew you were gonna do that.

Fiona: 0:40

So predictable. So, so predictable. I'm sorry.

Richard: 0:43

I'm alright.

Fiona: 0:43

Do we really have to do this today? Do we, do we really have to do this today? Can we, do we have to?

Richard: 0:53

can you not be bothered?

Fiona: 0:54

can't be bothered.

Richard: 0:55

Can't be bothered by this today. I tell you that. Yeah.

Fiona: 0:57

No. Can't be bothered.

Richard: 0:59

But then I, I mean, I'm, I'm hoping that. Uh, Our listeners know what the episode is about based on the title as opposed to what's happened to these two today?

Fiona: 1:10

Or if it was somebody's first time listening.

Richard: 1:13

Thought what? These not happy folk. I thought all therapists were supposed to be perfect. No, we're nuts.

Fiona: 1:25

speak for yourself.

Richard: 1:27

Oh, I've never met a sane therapist. Try and try and find one, think of one sane is a strong word. Okay.

Fiona: 1:35

We, we have, we have our foibles

Richard: 1:38

Yeah. And it drives us into the profession. Foible. Foible is great. Interesting fact. Lots of people don't like the word moist, and it was often thought it's'cause of the oy sound in it. It's not because foibles is fine and so is moist if it's in relation to a cake, but when just the word moist comes out of anywhere else, it reminds us of feeling moist, which is not nice. So that's why people don't like the word moist. Apologies for the trigger warning that I didn't put in there. Moist warning.

Fiona: 2:10

I, it's something I have heard and I've never understood it, so that explains it. Yes, because if you have a lemon drizzle cake, you would want it to be moist.

Richard: 2:19

don't want a dry cake. No, but we don't want a moist undercarriage. So today's uh, subject that we're going to be talking about, which we did start is about apathy, about that feeling of basically, I can't be bothered. That sort of feeling. And just as we were about to start, you were having a little search through your list of an emotional wheel that we often find in therapy is apathy even on it?

Fiona: 2:49

yes. Well, this is a website. It's berkeleywellbeing.com.

Richard: 2:54

Oh yeah.

Fiona: 2:54

And on it you can download a list of, I think it's 271. I might have got that number wrong a lot. It's hundreds of emotions are listed on this website. Going into really finite granular detail of emotions and yes, apathy is on there. And the person who suggested that we talked about this said, is it the forgotten emotion? I thought, Hmm,

Richard: 3:23

Mm.

Fiona: 3:25

that's an interesting one. And when I mentioned it to you, Richard, if it's okay say, you said, oh, is it an emotion? Because it's sort of, it crosses over, doesn't it? It's sort of a state.

Richard: 3:37

Yes. Or a lack of another emotion.

Fiona: 3:39

Yeah.

Richard: 3:40

The absence of motivation, I suppose. Is what apathy is. The absence of

Fiona: 3:44

the absence of motivation. The absence of enjoyment. The absence of, oh, I don't know. I don't like it. I'm feeling horrible thinking about it, to be honest.

Richard: 3:54

It's the thought that counts.

Fiona: 3:56

Yeah.

Richard: 3:56

Hence the moist,

Fiona: 3:58

How many times are we going back to that

Richard: 4:01

oh, systematic desensitisation, folks. You'll be fine by the end of the episode.

Fiona: 4:05

I think most emotions, I don't know, maybe all emotions, I don't know, are contextual. So I think it's really important to differentiate right as we start to talk about apathy is to talk about it's differentiation. The Rugby World Cup is about to start. There will be many listeners I suspect, who are apathetic

Richard: 4:29

Hmm.

Fiona: 4:30

about the Rugby World Cup. There will be others who are exceedingly excited about the Rugby World Cup, especially as England are in a really good half of the draw. But, that's the context.

Richard: 4:43

Yeah.

Fiona: 4:44

with the context we can look at what matters and what doesn't. If you lovely listener are apathetic about the Rugby World Cup, that really doesn't matter unless it matters to people around you, in which case you are going to be annoying, but it still doesn't really matter. But then if we go to the other end of the continuum and think about somebody who is apathetic generally

Richard: 5:11

As a personality trait.

Fiona: 5:12

or a current trait

Richard: 5:14

Hmm. A state.

Fiona: 5:16

a state, then it can be problematic. And when I was googling this just to see what was out there, It was WebMD that went straight into it being seriously pathological.

Richard: 5:29

Oh, well, I, a correlation does not imply causation, though. I could imagine

Fiona: 5:33

it was what, what,

Richard: 5:34

resistant depression would

Fiona: 5:36

what, cause what causes apathy, brain disorders, dementia,

Richard: 5:41

Oh my God.

Fiona: 5:42

yeah. All, all sorts of physical. Issues, Parkinson's

Richard: 5:47

as opposed to the lockdowns of 2020 and 2021.

Fiona: 5:51

So I was sort of, woo, Hey, hang on a minute. That's not what I was thinking when I thought of apathy.

Richard: 5:57

No.

Fiona: 5:58

So, just to be clear, there is that end of the continuum where it can be a sign, a correlation with a serious physical issue. But I guess what we are talking about,'cause this is Therapy Natters it's not medical natters. It's

Richard: 6:13

Psychiatry

Fiona: 6:14

not psychiatry, disease natters, it's Therapy Natters. This is about people who are feeling apathy at times when they probably don't really want to. So then that phrase that you use, the lack of motivation is really apt.

Richard: 6:32

Procrastination comes into that. Perfectionism can even come into that as, as well as just overwhelm. We can be overwhelmed with so many different things going on in our life all at the same time.'cause that's life. And sometimes, as Carl Jung said, not in these words that people do suffer with life itself. And it can be overwhelming

Fiona: 6:59

One way to deal with suffering with life is to switch off and say, yeah, can't be bothered with that.

Richard: 7:06

Yeah, I'm not doing this. I'm going back under the duvet and with that feeling of overwhelm, we're trying to avoid the pain of that overwhelm and there isn't a way to do that, unfortunately. If we want to live the life that we want to live, we have to feel the apathy. And live life anyway, as opposed to feel the fear and do it anyway, which is such an overused phrase. But still, I can't sum anything up better.

Fiona: 7:30

It's such a wonderful phrase yes, it's used a lot, but feel a fear and do it anyway is really significant. So how would you phrase it with apathy then? Is it just feel the apathy and do it anyway? Or is there something

Richard: 7:44

My theory, my ideology is that with accepting, how you feel. You can gain some understanding about how you feel and why you feel what you feel. And with that, you can then overcome if you have to, the way that you feel.'cause you can put it in its rightful place, but it takes the understanding, it takes the examining of it. So if we have that apathy, we need to pick it apart. To use your phrase, we need to have a little look

Fiona: 8:18

I've thought of that so many times since last week when you told me that I say that so I didn't know I said it.

Richard: 8:25

Yeah. Yeah. You do

Fiona: 8:27

Well, I, I'm happy to say it because I think it's apt for what we're doing. So a little rummage around. Yes. So if you are feeling apathetic about a particular thing or generally Yeah. It's to build that awareness of why,

Richard: 8:42

Mm-hmm.

Fiona: 8:43

why, why am I feeling this? I mean, why is an interesting word in itself?'cause it implies a judgment that you shouldn't be feeling it. And that's not necessarily the case. Let's go back to Rugby. If you're feeling apathetic about Rugby, that can, the why can just be because I don't understand it. I dunno who these people are. It doesn't matter.

Richard: 9:01

Mm, this is irrelevant.

Fiona: 9:04

That's fine.

Richard: 9:05

It has no relevance. Mm. Whereas having apathy to, Go dating when you've been feeling lonely for a long time, or apathy to find a new job when you've been miserable in the one you've got that all needs unpacking to find out, you know, what's going on.

Fiona: 9:25

It is interesting, those two examples. My mind immediately went to a presumption, and as we know, we should not presume, but for the sake of this podcast, let's just presume for a moment, both of those took me to a place of protection,

Richard: 9:42

Okay.

Fiona: 9:43

That being apathetic,

Richard: 9:45

from disappointment, from,

Fiona: 9:47

from failure, from hurt, rejection. If you're apathetic about going dating, you're not gonna get hurt. You're not gonna get rejected. You just. I can't be bothered with all that nonsense. Yeah. I'll just stay where I am. It's safe. Same with the job, exactly the same with the job, really. In essence. So that will then tell you something. Then you can change it if you choose to change it.

Richard: 10:16

Hmm. If. Because using Rugby as an example. Yes, I, it's a problem that I have this apathy because my boyfriend or my wife or whoever is really into it and I'm not. So it's a problem. Is it? Is it, is it a problem?'cause it shouldn't be a problem'cause. Why is that a problem? But I should be like everybody else, everybody else is interested in this. I'm often reminded of the, the episode of the IT crowd where these two, two geeks get dragged out to a football match and they're genuinely not interested in this football match in the slightest. Look at that ludicrous display. You know, it, it meant nothing to them, but they wanted a sense of belonging with other people. And if that's what you want, then look for that. But it needs to be done in the right way. No wonder that you'll have apathy towards sport if you're not sporty. But if you want a sense of belonging, then you join your amateur dramatic society. That's what I did. 20 years later, still there,

Fiona: 11:19

Then I was struck,'cause we were talking about the examples you gave and the, the building awareness. There is a link here but not. complete Not a hundred percent, not an always link, but there is a link with depression

Richard: 11:34

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Fiona: 11:35

And so I think that needs to be drawn out here to, to see that sometimes people who are depressed will be apathetic about things that are going on around them.

Richard: 11:49

Many things even about getting out of bed, having shower, going to the shops. They could be hungry and they can't be bothered to cook because I just don't feel like it. So they'll just boil a kettle and make a pot noodle. Okay, fine. if that's you at your best right now, then that's okay. But of course, let's have a look at what's going on underneath, as we often do with depression. So many times, depression is there as a signal. Your body, your mind has been telling somebody for years and years that something's not right. And there's a little hint in the background that something's not right. And we go, I'm too busy to listen to that voice that's telling me that something's not right. I'll just carry on regardless. Until eventually the body says, I've had enough. You're not listening to me. I'm gonna make you listen and I'm gonna put you on your back. And yeah, that is gonna have some symptoms of apathy. Even then, unpack it. Go back. When did this start? If things that happened in your life made that happen, then things happening in your life can prevent it or at least protect you in some way. Even if a protection from depression is just the equivalent of putting an umbrella up in a heavy storm, I'm still wet, but I'm just not as wet. but I think we need the

Fiona: 13:11

I feel, I'm doing something

Richard: 13:13

Yeah. I'm still going out in the rain.

Fiona: 13:15

But the putting up the umbrella is I'm doing something to help myself.

Richard: 13:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fiona: 13:20

As opposed to just saying, nearly said a swear word there. Opposed to just saying, oh, well

Richard: 13:27

it. Yeah.

Fiona: 13:30

We can be apathetic and depressed. We can be apathetic and not depressed. We can be depressed and not apathetic.

Richard: 13:40

Hmm.

Fiona: 13:41

So a serious part of that building the awareness is to pull that apart and, and see where you are on those dimensions.

Richard: 13:51

Like I said, I've often thought of apathy as being the absence of motivation. I don't have the motivation to do something and, and this feeling of apathy, If we do it on a daily basis becomes this feeling of, well, this is who I am now. I was talking about this on a podcast recently. We can't just have motivation, we've gotta go and get it. I think of it as being a bit like putting fuel in your car. You can't just have it. It's not, doesn't happen by itself. And if you just sit down on the drive waiting to go, you're not gonna get anywhere. Sometimes the behaviour is what influences the feelings, which influences a belief about self. Which then influences how you feel about yourself, which influences further behaviour and round and round it goes. The principle that therapists have been talking about in cognitive work and behavioural work and humanistic therapy for 60 years or more, probably sometimes it's the doing it anyway like we were saying before. But I don't wanna fall into that sort of pseudo psychology. I like to, I like things to be based on reality. Even if it's anecdotal. So I'm hoping that these things I'm talking about here are genuine, and it's not just off the top of my head that it comes from a genuine place. in your experience, Fiona, does that make sense?

Fiona: 15:19

Yeah, it makes sense. I think we've talked about motivation before and we've discussed intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. So I think there is an element there where you can look to find your motivation by following some theories. But if you can find your way to get motivated by using theories, you can perhaps address the apathy that's stopping you. But I think there's, there's also the, there needs to be a, a looking for what you gain from the apathy. If this is generalised.

Richard: 15:55

Yes. Because is apathy a good thing at times?

Fiona: 16:00

Let's make that distinction between the specific, the Rugby and the generalised. So specific, doesn't matter. You could do with it, don't do with it. Whatever works for you. If it's causing a problem with your partner, if you're not watching the Rugby, then do something with it. But let's talk more about the general where you're sitting there in the corner of the sofa with daytime TV on and you're just not doing anything or staying under the duvet. That sort of apathy for a little while, maybe that can be a good thing. I wouldn't like to say that nobody should ever do those things. I mean, it's, it's sort of like self pity and it's a similar sort, it's not the same, but it's a similar sort of thing. Do it for a bit. If that's what you feel, just, just do it for a bit. if you've never done it before and you feel like just it's a Saturday you and you just think oh, I've just got to stay here. I don't wanna do anything, then stay there and don't do anything. It's not the end of the world. So we are not talking about here, we are not talking about the contextual thing. We're not talking about the short term thing. We're talking about longer term issues and

Richard: 17:16

a difference between that and a and a duvet day. People talk about having a duvet day and they just take the duvet from the bedroom into the living room, throw it on the sofa, and they just have a duvet day on the sofa with their duvet watching films or Netflix or something. That's okay. Treat yourself if that's a treat, but if it makes you feel bad, then it's not a treat.

Fiona: 17:37

that's true. And I wonder if they feel apathetic when they're doing it or if they are actually really rather enjoying that. So again, it's to get a grip of what the emotion is and what that means. Because I mean, all through this, as we, as we started talking about it, I said at the beginning, I said, oh, I don't like this feeling. I've had this feeling going through it. It's, it feels unpleasant to me and I'm not apathetic. I'm just feeling it because we're talking about it. As in a general thing, I might be apathetic about some things, but not Rugby. So it is really pulling it all apart to see exactly what's going on for you. But a general state, a way of being of apathy generally. I don't see how that can be a good thing. Unless if it is protecting from something very specific.

Richard: 18:39

It's so context dependent. It's phenomenological. It's unique to each individual person experiencing it. And that needs exploring. maybe with a therapist, maybe not. Maybe there are things you can explore on your own. You can, you can write and you can journal, and you can think, you can have a little look what's going on underneath

Fiona: 18:59

And you can talk people.

Richard: 19:00

Yes, that's a good point.

Fiona: 19:02

I mean, you can talk to therapists. I mean, you know, on this podcast, we are supporting therapy. That's what we,

Richard: 19:08

pro therapy.

Fiona: 19:09

we, we believe in therapy. You don't necessarily have to, you could talk to a friend and say, I'm feeling like this. What do you think? And as long as they don't say Stop it or pull yourself together.

Richard: 19:22

Urgh, Yeah, Having said that, even if you haven't got friends and family that you want to share this with. This is the 21st century. There are internet forums all over the place for people to chat totally anonymously about how you're thinking and feeling. Chat about it. I dunno how many Facebook groups are out there that are just designed for people to talk about the things that they're going through and share they're experiences. For others to validate them and listen and say, I know exactly what you mean and I've been in a similar situation and this is, this is what happened for me. Or just to get another perspective.'cause it could be that once you've voiced it, it turns out you are fine. This isn't apathy. You're comparing yourself to some superhuman who can work for 15 hours a day and only needs three hours sleep. And you can pick your kids up and drop them off and go to work and still run a business and write a book and still get a chance to listen to the Therapy Natters podcast once a week for 30 minutes, depends who you're comparing yourself to when you feel that apathy. Maybe for some people, there isn't the apathy at all. They're just being normal, whatever that means.

Fiona: 20:32

and it's pathologising again. Just to say one thing with those sorts of forums can be quite collusive.

Richard: 20:40

Mm

Fiona: 20:41

that if you have people who are saying, oh yeah, I know, I know exactly what you feel, then that

Richard: 20:47

It can support the problem rather than support the person

Fiona: 20:49

yeah, make it harder to change it. And sometimes just going back to the pull yourself together or stop it. There are times when that is what we need. We need somebody who we value, care for respect to say, Hey, come on.

Richard: 21:08

Hmm.

Fiona: 21:09

So I just wanted to go back to that and say, look, I'm not, I'm not completely dissing that as a, process that it can be quite useful, but it needs to be done judiciously. I think It's worth looking though, briefly, having a little look briefly at times when we might be apathetic, but still have some sort of need to do it anyway by choice. So that sort of conflict. So if you think back to your school days, any listeners, presumably you went to school there will have been lessons that you went to where you just really were not interested in the subject whatsoever.

Richard: 21:53

I've had three separate conversations in the last week or so from friends and family where the, three different people use the same phrase. I really hated school. I really hated school, they said. And I look back now with apathy to be fair about the whole thing. I didn't hate it. I didn't love it. It was just I had to do it I didn't really feel much of it at all. But you gotta do it, haven't you? Gotta play the game.

Fiona: 22:23

Well, you don't have to. And there are plenty of examples of people who haven't, who've done really well, but there will be far, far more examples of people who haven't, who haven't done well.

Richard: 22:34

Hmm.

Fiona: 22:35

So this is, this is asking quite a lot of young people, but I think it is, it is actually really quite important and parents could have these conversations with their children about whether you do it even though it is of no interest. I mean, I would hope that with the way that education is today, I, I might be rose tinted glasses here. I don't know, but I would hope that most people would find some things at school interesting. But that doesn't mean that you have to find everything interesting. I mean, when I was at school, we had to choose, I'm in the days of O levels, but when we were choosing our O level topics, we had to choose a science. I was not interested in science. I, I just didn't get it. I mean, I love it now. I love not love it. I love listening to shorts on YouTube about astronomy and physics and things like that. It's almost a little precise things by nice charismatic men usually.

Richard: 23:41

Neil deGrasse Tyson. Yeah. I

Fiona: 23:43

yes, yes. He was in my mind, although I couldn't remember his name, but yeah, those bits fabulous. That was not what I was exposed to at school, I was exposed to really, really boring, sorry teachers on all science, chemistry, physics, biology. They were pretty bad. And this was at a good girls grammar school. It's not good girls, good grammar school for girls. Of course, we were all good girls, but that's beside the point. So, I wasn't interested, but we had to choose a science subject. Now, luckily they put on the option of human biology as an O level basically for the people who weren't interested in science, because they figured, quite rightly, that most people are interested in humans. And it worked very well. And the ones of us who weren't science-y did that and we did quite well. And I got an A'cause I was interested in that'cause it was about my body rather than butterflies and Bunsen burners and I don't, I couldn't even give you anything else'cause I've got nothing to give you. But that was the apathy that was there. But I didn't generalise that to school. But I put up with it, got through, did it. And found, a way through. And I think that's, that's the thing of, having that, I mean, I didn't know what I was doing in this context, you know, what we're talking about now of awareness. I wasn't aware of what I was doing, but that is what I was doing.

Richard: 25:24

And I wonder if those people that might say, oh, I hated school, never got on with it, hated it. Was because they were Allowing, if that's a fair thing to say, the shadow of the things that they didn't like about school to completely block out the things that they could appreciate. And maybe we do that in the rest of our lives sometimes as well. And that means we have to look for the light and not just the shadow of whatever it is that's created the apathy. Hmm.

Fiona: 25:55

It's actually a really good point. I think if we, you were to sit down with any individual and say, right school days, let's list what was good, what was not good. There would, I hope always be some things on both lists because if it was all good, then there's something a bit peculiar.

Richard: 26:14

That sets up for failure when the real world kicks in.

Fiona: 26:17

Yeah. Some sort of balance, even if the good is the sponge pudding.

Richard: 26:22

Hmm. With a minty custard.

Fiona: 26:25

Minty custard on a sponge pudding.

Richard: 26:28

I'm sure that's what we had at my, my middle school. I could have dreamt that. I do remember a green custard. I do. It was a green minty custard. Definitely. Was it on the pudding? I don't know This

Fiona: 26:40

That's, that's very disturbing. But there will be some things that people can find, I would hope. And if there's not, then that's also something to look at. But there'll be some things, you know, like the friendships you, you made or the fun you had on the playing field at lunchtime. There'll be some good, but it's how people then generalised from one or the other to it was good or it was bad. let's look at the intermediates and See the benefits, see the problems, and then see how each individual has learned from those. See what it's done. And not only what you have learned, but what you can learn. Maybe you learnt to be apathetic. Maybe it was a tactic that was, Enacted.

Richard: 27:24

Taught. Modeled.

Fiona: 27:25

Yeah. And it worked. Maybe it worked to be apathetic about certain subjects or the whole thing. And then you weren't damaged by failures.

Richard: 27:36

Because if don't try and you can say, well, I didn't put any effort in at all. That's why I failed it.

Fiona: 27:42

And I didn't care. I don't care about physics, so it doesn't matter that I failed. Yeah.

Richard: 27:46

Whereas if you do put the effort in and you still fail you bear the brunt of it.'cause it's not just your behaviour that caused it, it's, it's the intellectual you. That's to so-called blame there and that hurts. So yeah, I'm not interested in that. I'm not even gonna try. Makes sense. Of course it does. And I think that does translate to the rest of the world as well, not just school. Whether it's about dating or finding work, which were the two that we used earlier on or to get healthy. That's a good one. How often do people sabotage their health with apathy because they don't identify as somebody that would be healthy or could be healthy, even though they're desperately unhappy with the level of their health. I hear that story a lot. Really do. And that can become somebody's identity. This is who I am, somebody that isn't fit. Well, let's challenge that.

Fiona: 28:50

the challenge of What about going for a walk? Oh, I just can't be bothered.

Richard: 28:56

Yeah. Because the meaning behind it is I'm unfit, I'm broken. If I go for a walk to try and do something about it, all it's gonna do is remind me of how broken I am, as opposed to give them evidence that you're changing, you're doing the thing that allows you to be the person that you want to be and move you away from the person that you keep telling yourself that you hate. There's a lot going on there.

Fiona: 29:22

So I think we can say that we haven't forgotten apathy as an emotion.

Richard: 29:26

It definitely exists, doesn't it? Along with a couple of hundred other ones as well, which I, I think I did put a link to at some point in a

Fiona: 29:34

I think we have done. We have done.'cause it's, it's a really useful resource

Richard: 29:38

Oh, it is. Emotional intelligence is vital, I think, for progression in life, whether you're moving on from apathy or you're moving towards confidence. Whatever it is, having emotional intelligence to go, What am I feeling, and what's the meaning behind it? Is absolutely imperative for us all. That's the sort of stuff that should be taught in school. Then we'd be interested, well, I guess we need to finish off for another episode for another week, Fiona. Hey, what we up to next week?

Fiona: 30:14

we have a real psychoanalyst

Richard: 30:19

Oh, really scratching the surface with a shovel. Deep, deep down

Fiona: 30:24

a real one who has told me that she is five generations from Freud.

Richard: 30:31

Ooh.

Fiona: 30:31

Not literally, but as in trained by train, by train, by five generations. That's all from Freud. and she'll, she's a bundle of laughs as well. So I'm looking forward to finding out more about what psychoanalysis is these days as opposed to five generations ago with Freud.

Richard: 30:50

Yeah, because that's the thing

Fiona: 30:52

exactly the same, in which case, if it's exactly the same, that will be very interesting.

Richard: 30:57

It will be super interesting. I'll be fascinated to find out how that works in the 21st century. Right. I'll look forward to that then. Okey dokey folks. I'll leave you to it. See you next time. Bye.

Fiona: 31:09

Bye bye bye.