Couples Therapy

It's guest week on Therapy Natters. And this week Richard & Fiona are nattering with family, systemic & couples therapist Inger Gordon.

https://www.psychotherapy.org.uk/therapist/Inger-Gordon-iAieSAAS

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Transcript

Richard: 0:10

Good day, people! It's Therapy Natters time again. Half an hour of nattering between therapists about the ups and downs of what it is to be human, what it is to live, thrive, and survive in a world that desperately wants you to feel that you've got something missing from your life so that they can sell you something. Oh, that's very cynical of me. Sorry about that. Am I being cyn that's, it's, yeah, I am being cynical there, but it's also true. How are you doing, Fiona?

Fiona: 0:41

I'm doing, I'm doing just fine, yes. Cynical and true, can't really argue with that. It's

Richard: 0:47

I mean, I,

Fiona: 0:49

best to be aware of it, isn't it? Best to

Richard: 0:51

even if we fall for it,

Fiona: 0:53

yeah.

Richard: 0:53

I love shiny things. I've just bought a new car, actually. I've got a hybrid now. It's a Toyota Corolla. Here's, I had the V5 in the post. I got a V5. The first time I've had a new car since 2001, because I've been leasing for ages, but I'm like, no! I'm gonna buy my own car and not give it back and then have to get charged goodness knows how much money per mile. So I, I'm aware that shiny things make us feel good for about six weeks, if that, maybe a month, maybe less. And then it's just the car, isn't it? Yeah, it's also four hundred pound a month, but it's just the car. As I say this now I realise I could have just bought some second hand car and kept the 400 a month and I'd have probably spent that on fairground rides and had a much better time. Oh, for goodness sake! I fell for it.

Fiona: 1:45

I knew somebody once who bought a new new car every six months

Richard: 1:51

Wow.

Fiona: 1:52

and that experience of knowing him, is always, is just, no, I don't do that, so I've never bought a new car.

Richard: 2:01

Wow.

Fiona: 2:02

And I just think of Barry, and think, no, we don't do that, but I didn't tell you about Barry. You could have learnt from Barry. But enjoy your six weeks of the shiny object.

Richard: 2:15

Yeah, I've had it a week. I've had it, well, I've had it four days now. So, the novelty has not worn off. But it still smells like a new car in there with glue and plastic and fake leather. Or maybe real leather. I don't know. Probably not. That's our tangent for today.

Fiona: 2:30

Well, we don't ever stick to just one tangent, do we?

Richard: 2:33

There could well be more. But hey, it's guest week!

Fiona: 2:37

Tis indeed, we have Inger Gordon with us. Inger is a family systemic and couples therapist. who lives in the Winnie the Pooh village. She only just told me that, but that's, that's just wonderful. I just love that, so it was going to get mentioned. I just love the idea. Hi Inger, nice to have you with us.

Inger: 2:58

Thank you, Fiona. Yeah, it's good to, good to be with you two, too. Yeah.

Fiona: 3:01

So we thought we'd have you along to natter about couples therapy because it's something that several or even many of our questions have had, as a little sort of background element to them, but neither of us are trained to work with couples. So, we thought we'd pick your brains as to what that is like. Particularly, of course, from the couple's point of view, but from yours as well.

Richard: 3:29

I'm quite interested from a therapist's perspective, because I know that it's very different to one to one therapy, I suppose, isn't it?

Inger: 3:37

Yeah, it's very different because, you know, obviously in one to one therapy that client knows that they've got your ear and that even though you might challenge them, presumably a bit, that somehow they're really on your side, aren't they? Um, or the fantasy is that they are and that's, that's why you're paying them and that's what it's all about. Whereas, um, couple therapy You're sharing, aren't you? And it's, quite a tricky business to be a therapist with a couple. Hoping that they'll realise that you really are there for both of them. And you invest a lot of your energy in making sure that you are appearing to be as neutral as possible, really, to the issue that they might have brought to you. And the reason I think this is really important at the beginning of couple therapy, and even at the point where it's somebody's contacting you, to be mindful that you've, you've always got two people, not one. Because the person who contacts you will usually be the person who most wants the therapy, who's got the biggest investment in something changing. And, right from the start, whenever there's any emails exchanging or something, I say, look, please can you make sure that your partner is copied into these exchanges. Because even at that early point of setting something up, you could be creating a relationship that might be slightly difficult to distance yourself from once the work starts. So the other party might not be as willing to attend, and there might be all sorts of reasons for that. It might be that they don't think there's a problem, that even if they think there might be a problem, they're a bit frightened about where this therapy could lead. Could it lead to the end of the relationship? Which maybe they don't want, or maybe they're just not into therapy, you know. There's all sorts of reasons, but in my experience, there's usually one person's keen and the other person slightly more sceptical. Let's put it that way. So, from the beginning, the couple therapist has to work quite hard to join with both individuals. To make them both feel, to some extent, comfortable and to feel heard.

Fiona: 6:02

Do sometimes people feel threatened and feel that they could be exposed and challenged too much. Is that where some of the reluctance might come from?

Inger: 6:15

I think so. You know, therapy is quite exposing, isn't it? And I suppose if you're going for individual therapy, maybe you feel quite safe once you've got to know your therapist about anything that you might say. But you know if you think about it, you've got two people coming into the room, conflict might emerge, things might get said that up until now there have been ways of avoiding those conversations. And if you think there might be children involved there might be a family there in the background, that might affect how either one or both parties feels about doing the work and where it might end up.

Fiona: 6:57

Yes, as you're talking, I'm sort of imagining it and feeling it. And I can imagine that feeling of what if they tell me that it's all my fault and everything I'm doing is, wrong. And my partner is the one who's right in everything, and that feels so unsafe. Whereas, as you say, with one to one, yes, you can be challenged, but it's very contained. So it can be a bit disturbing and destabilising if you're challenged, but it's contained and it's only there. Nobody else needs know.

Inger: 7:27

Yeah, I think the challenge of being, if you like, found out, caught out, told that you're wrong, would be there in terms of just how, what we bring from our own families and the expectations of what gets discussed in public, how relationships are, And there's so much at stake here, it's almost like what is the perfect marriage, all this stuff is going to come out or be exposed, and I think this issue about whether you're going to get blamed for your behaviour, you know, if somebody's doing something very obviously abusive that they mention, then we do explore that. I'm not saying that we blame the person, but you can't sort of leave it as if it hadn't been said or if it's just kind of okay.

Fiona: 8:14

Yeah, so there's a, difference between not emptying the dishwasher, and coercively controlling your partner, but the fear could almost be the same, whichever and that process that you mentioned of ensuring that both partners feel that you are neutral, so you're on both sides, as it were, that, that is so crucial. I mean, it's obviously crucial, but it's even more crucial if somebody is coming into it with that expectation or fear.

Richard: 8:46

The way I think about it... And I might be wrong in this, but it seems to fit right for me, is that the therapist in couples therapy is helping the couple to see that the relationship is the problem as opposed to he's the problem or she is the problem or they are the problem and it's the three of you against the problem as opposed to them against them, him against him, her against him or whatever It's the three of you looking at the problem and working out how to fix is not the right word, but how to work with it, I guess.

Inger: 9:28

That's a question I often ask couples, actually, Richard, is what does the relationship need from you? I might ask them as individuals that, because I like this idea of externalising the relationship because as you can imagine people will often come into the room with very familiar narratives or criticisms about the other.

Fiona: 9:51

There was an example that was just coming into my head, it was married at first sight and somebody was using very trivial reasons for why we are not compatible.

Inger: 10:00

I like that, Fiona, for another reason, maybe, because I think some of the research shows that one of the things that keeps couples together are the small acts of kindness. I often mention this when I'm working with couples because that whole thing about emptying the dishwasher, it's not as trivial as we think, you know, because there can be deep divisions between a couple, or sort of very painful triggers that can happen between them. And yet, there's also this possibility of the way in which you hold the other in mind, the way in which, if you like, you can offer very small things that will make the other person's life feel a bit better. Or actually just so that they know that you are thinking about them. This isn't trivial. You know, sometimes we can't always solve the big problems and some of the big problems might be circumstantial at the time of life that you're both in. But just taking a little bit of care and keeping that going, it's important.

Fiona: 11:09

Absolutely, and I suppose this is about being able to think these things through and discuss them and to be aware of meaning, as to, to what has meaning and what doesn't need to have meaning. I've watched an episode of Married at First Sight recently where this woman was saying, we're completely incompatible, nothing in common, I like to have breakfast and he doesn't. And it was sort of, yeah, and? Sorry, that doesn't really seem to be that significant.

Richard: 11:44

But it's an excuse to explain why the attraction wasn't there, maybe.

Fiona: 11:49

Yes, I mean, that was just an example, there was lots of it, and the two, watching as an outsider as you do on that program, it's very voyeuristic, um, you could see there was never a chance, why on earth they got matched, who knows, but it was, that could become something that would matter if somebody was really keen on that, the start of the day. That what I believe is the right way to do it, is to sit down and have breakfast together and discuss things, discuss your day. Uh, rather than just, I want my smashed avocado on toast and he doesn't want it. Yeah. So it is about that working through, isn't it, as to what's important and what's not. And also I would imagine sometimes people assign an importance to something which they can disconnect. Yeah.

Richard: 12:43

Yeah, it's, it's always the meaning behind the meaning behind they didn't empty the dishwasher is they're very patient, they'll do it later, then that doesn't involve you. But if the meaning behind it to the other party is You take advantage of me. Here's further evidence that you're taking advantage of me. Just like the toothpaste tube being squeezed at the wrong end, or your stubble being left in the sink, which is a common complaint I hear from women. If the meaning behind all of these things is, you just don't care about me. Then that's gonna hurt every time they see that the dishwasher hasn't been emptied, but the dishwasher's meaningless. But you not caring about me is really important, but they're not related. But if it feels related, it needs exploring.

Fiona: 13:37

Yeah, and stubble in the sink does not mean you don't care. It means I haven't bothered to clean it up. So if I was the wife of that person who left stubble in the sink, I'd just leave it there until he cleaned it up.

Inger: 13:51

Well, there's also that possibility of somebody thinking, look, I've told you about this before, you know I don't like that. Why do you keep doing it? sort of stuff, which also fits with, you know, the you don't care about

Richard: 14:05

You don't listen to me. You don't care.

Inger: 14:08

What we do know about working with couples is that the main issues I mean, this is important the small issues. I agree, but the main issues are money, sex, friends and family. One of those will be what's brought them into therapy. So we've got, if I start with the family, you know, the sort of, parents sitting on your shoulders about how to be a couple, and especially how to be a couple through the life cycle. So, for example, when you have children. That can be quite a source of tension in the, what we call the wider system, which is the extended family. Adjustments to be made through parts of the life cycle. And to do with the kind of expectations that you've both brought in. So when couples who might wish to have children, in their family. Young couples don't necessarily notice these differences we've talked about because they're focused on their shared interests or what they do with their own friends. But when they bring children into their home, you'll get a sort of back story coming in about how to raise children, for example, which can be very, very different. a couple therapist might well be exploring what their expectations were, what their own stories are about that, how, how they were brought up, what, what kind of childcare their own parents did, but also what kind of marriage, if it was a marriage, their parents had and that what are they bringing in to this couple relationship as an expectation? So the family can be quite problematic for quite a lot of couples in my experience, for a variety of reasons. But then we've got the friends thing, which might be about how much contact each partner is allowed to have with their individual network or a shared network and any kind of issues that might create for them in terms of maybe jealousy, feeling inadequate in some way. The money one speaks for itself. That's, about whether we've got enough, how we share what we have. And sex, yeah. I'm not saying it's always an issue, but usually if there's something difficult going on for the couple, it will be reflected in their sex life. Or vice versa.

Richard: 16:32

And they're the big three.

Inger: 16:33

The big three, I'll probably miss one somewhere, and there might be another one, but

Fiona: 16:37

Well, friends and family are either together they're separate. So it's three or four. But that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? That in any of those areas where there's a conflict, using that word with a little c, as in, there's a difference. Then, those things either can become a big conflict with a big c, or they can be resolved and worked with.

Richard: 17:04

I'm regularly reminded in therapy of an interview I saw on something like Central News or something like that 25 years ago here in the West Midlands. And it was of this couple who were in their 80s or 90s, I think they were celebrating their 70th wedding anniversary, something like that. It was more than 60th. They'd been married a long time. And in typical local journalism fashion, the reporter just stuffed a microphone in front of this old lady and said, So, what's the secret to a long and happy marriage? And this old lady, she said, We never fell out of love at the same time.

Fiona: 17:44

Oh!

Richard: 17:45

And thought, I'm pinching that. That's vital information, that's really useful. And I glanced then at the bloke that was sitting next to her on the telly, and whose face was like, uh, must have fallen out of love at some point then. Thanks, hon. But, if you're going to be together for 70 years. You are. And it could be that you fall out of love for months and months and months and months, if not years, possibly. And it makes absolute sense that if one does do that, and they're aware that this is just what happens in long term relationships, I'll come round. We'll see. But if they both do have that attitude at the same time, then how do you come back from that? Inger, do you see that in the therapy room?

Inger: 18:34

Yes, yes, and actually sometimes that's one of the saddest things to see, and I, when you say do I see it in the therapy room, sometimes we see it when they don't, and I find that a very lonely and challenging thing to hold as the therapist. When a couple have come to you to resolve some differences. And there's actually very, very little energy in either of them, really. And you actually wonder why are they trying so hard? I don't know what the magic dust is, if you like, that kind of keeps people interested in each other. But yes, sometimes you really do see that. Sometimes you see it when they know that and they've come because they want to talk things over about how they feel that's happening. And then if you like, you're trying to assess how much is left. And whether they can settle for that. Whether they can build on that. That's in sharp contrast, I suppose, to couples who come in where very high energy, but very high conflict. And you can tell that they are totally passionately engaged in something. It just may not look great, and it may not feel great, it may not look very healthy, it might make them both feel miserable a lot of the time, but you cannot imagine how they would live without the other person. So you kind of have to then look at how they can manage their emotions, how they can understand each other's emotions. The in love thing is a bit tricky from my point of view because it's a sort of romantic notion, which is out there in the culture about how to be in a couple you have to be in love. And I'm kind of interested in that because I don't think you have to be, actually, to be successful, contented couple.

Fiona: 20:36

Because you can love without being in love.

Inger: 20:38

Yes, yes.

Fiona: 20:40

Can't you? And it's interesting you just said the word culture,'cause it was in my head of culturally, if I think of my parents' generation, when they got married, it was complete expectation that that was it. That was for life. My aunt got divorced and it was sort of like, what that ha no, gosh. It was such a cultural expectation, so I think that people of that generation really to a degree, would just plod on with this is what it is. Whereas now, it's almost turned around. That there's not an expectation that people will get divorced, but it's always there. It's a sort of, they might, it's always on the cards, isn't it? There's a huge cultural shift. I mean, I'm talking about our culture here, whereas there are different cultures in different areas of the world and even within the UK, which might still have that previous culture.

Inger: 21:38

And we have to think about, the economic culture of having that freedom or not to divorce. And, for example, there are many religions where it still would not be acceptable to do that. So, divorce might be out there as a possibility for some people, whether or not they think it's possible and desirable for them. And I agree with you about the kind of if you're thinking about Western society and the concept of marriage being forever. And maybe any young people listening to this podcast may not be aware of how it was quite difficult to get a divorce. You had to prove adultery in many cases, and there was this awful shifty, shady stuff going on about getting a private investigator to go and prove that adultery had happened and I mean it sounds archaic now doesn't it?

Fiona: 22:32

Well it's, but it's actually very recent, very recent, isn't it? It's only the last couple of years that they've made, in the UK, no fault divorces straightforward. It used to be two years or five. Two years if there was agreement, five years if there wasn't agreement, for a no fault divorce.

Richard: 22:47

I think it was only last year.

Fiona: 22:48

Yeah, when I got divorced, I still had to give grounds. I mean it was fine because there was no disagreement between us, we just basically, made them up so that we could do it, and was, was fine.

Richard: 23:04

It's fine as long as there isn't too much animosity, because if you start making stuff up, as people did a couple of years ago, up until recently, when the law changed, they would have to make something up. Because the couple would be saying, well, we're just not in love anymore, what are we going to put? Oh, I'll just put that you were an idiot. Don't put that! And they go, okay, um, well, I'll say it was your fault, do you mind? Well, no, it's fine, okay, whatever. And a year later, the divorce is still ongoing, and look. Here, it is in black and white that it was your fault. Oh.

Fiona: 23:38

And it used to be, and again it's not that long ago, where if you cited adultery as the reason. You could name the co respondent and that would be published in the papers.

Richard: 23:51

Holy crap! That's crazy.

Fiona: 23:54

I know somebody, a friend of mine from a few years ago who had that experience. He was the co respondent. He had an affair with a married woman, she got divorced, he was named in the paper. So we have come a long way

Inger: 24:06

I watched that program Who Do You Think You Are, you know, about sort of famous people tracing their family trees and I was watching the one about Leslie Manville, who's the actor, female actor, and this is about maybe nearly 100 years ago, but having followed censuses about where her family were living, she discovered in two different examples at her grandparents generation, that couples who were having children with other people, in other words, they'd already separated and they were having new families, were still living in the same house. What the social historian said about that was that we've got to remember that in those days it was so expensive to divorce that poor people didn't. So I'm just kind of giving us yet another example of backdrop of divorce, that it was a wealthy person's privilege to divorce. I mean, to be fair, I'm not sure that some wealthy women would have agreed with that perspective at that time in history. But to come back to our point, yes, it's relatively recently that divorce has been something like on the menu of, I'm unhappy in my marriage, what shall I do about it? Well, I could divorce. it's an option now. Although actually, I think a lot of people, they don't want to divorce as the first port of call, you know. Although if they're really, really furious with their partner. If the partner's had an affair, you know, that, the first response might be, I'm going to divorce you, I'll sue you, I'll throw all the lawyers at you, kind of stuff. But most people, they've invested in the relationship for some time and as I said, if there are children involved too, they want an improvement. but this kind of cultural shift in western societies in the pursuit of happiness, I, I do think is around, that somehow if I'm not happy, that's a bad thing. It's something that I have to move on from. It's something that is intolerable and maybe I'll get a divorce if I really can't take it. But I think this notion of what a sort of solid couple relationship can look like does need some considering because I think Richard you were saying earlier, I mean couples will go through phases of poor intimacy, ups and downs, maybe external circumstances creating huge pressures on their relationship. And I think that there was a time in what I call the olden days when maybe, maybe people were more resilient or their expectations about being happy all the time might have been a bit different.

Richard: 26:56

Yeah, without spoiling my book that I wrote, you read it if you like, but the last chapter is all about that the pursuit of happiness is often the problem. That if you get out your own way and accept how you feel, you can be happy. Because part of being happy and contented involves the whole rainbow of emotions. Of course we're going to feel frustrated or resentful at times with people that are in our life. Shouldn't mean we have to walk away from those people. Because that's the same whether it's friends, family, or partners and spouses. Those feelings are genuine and it's good information. I'm feeling resentful. Good! You now know more about yourself than you knew 20 minutes ago. Let's unpack that. Therapy is a great place to do that. So is your own head sometimes, if it's in the right place. Journaling or listening to podcasts. You know, there are lots of ways of doing that.

Fiona: 27:58

And I was thinking as sort of an extension of that, the idea of the grass is always greener. You know, people I would imagine in the past had that feeling but didn't jump over into the new grass immediately. So that can be a great information point that you, Oh, look a new relationship. That would solve all my problems because the grass is always greener. But then if you step back rather than jump into it, perhaps you learn that it wouldn't be.

Richard: 28:31

I think I wrote a chapter about that in my book, actually. I wrote it in 2017, I can't remember, I've slept since then. But I definitely remember quoting that song, Escape. Remember, you know, the Pina Colada song'cos that's what that's about!

Fiona: 28:45

That song is a great example of that, isn't it?

Richard: 28:47

It's a horrible example of what you do with a relationship, though. Because the whole thing is about the two of them cheating on each other, and then Oh, it's you all along! Oh, I was cheating on wife with my

Fiona: 28:58

And then it was all absolutely fine.

Richard: 29:00

Pffft!

Inger: 29:01

I think I just want to mention that as well that in couple therapy as a systemic couple therapist what we're really looking at in some detail is the interaction that you witness in the room of how they regard each other. How they listen or can't listen, and how they make each other feel, and I know that some of what I'm talking about will be familiar to people who've had CBT because we're kind of interested in the feeling, meaning, and action responses, really. That I feel this. It means this to me and therefore I do that. And we kind of track that in sort of episodes in a couple about how the situation gets created, escalated, resolved or not through what they do. So we look in the minutiae really of what they're doing. And when we look at meaning, we are kind of looking where it comes from, because it may not be just located in this relationship. It's about what we bring in, whether it's from expectations from what we think everybody else is doing, or what our family history about what was expected. So, we're looking very carefully at actually what's really going on between those people and trying to help them see the wider picture. To really understand from the other person's point of view why they felt like that, where it's coming from. Because I think just being able to understand a bit better, and to not think it's all about me, that sort of defense that comes up when somebody says something about this or that and you just immediately think they're attacking me. Which might be how you feel, but we try to unpack where that statement or that behavior, where it originated. Just trying to give you a flavor of what we do in systemic couple works. It's actually possibly quite different from psychodynamic couple work.

Richard: 30:58

I wasn't aware that psychodynamic couple work was a thing. That's...

Inger: 31:04

Well, I, it is, I've got to acknowledge it is a thing. A lot of psychodynamic therapists will be doing couple work. The Tavistock has had trainings in couple work. But I think the emphasis in the systemic method, I feel I've got to say it because I'm here as a systemic, is that we use quite a lot of curiosity. We ask quite a lot of questions to bring out the whole picture. We're not necessarily always looking at the internal world of each individual. Because in psychodynamic couple therapy, which I've got a lot of respect for, and to be honest, sometimes I use some of their stuff, they're looking at understanding the internal world of each individual and looking for what they might call the unconscious fit, how each triggers the other and that sort of thing. Actually I sometimes look for that, but our main emphasis is really on interaction. What's going on between them? How did that happen?

Fiona: 32:02

Really interesting. So, if any listeners are thinking about having couples therapy, that seems like an important thought for them to have, which type of couples therapy to have, rather than which is the nearest place and who's cheapest, which we know are often criteria that people do use. So, where would people go? I mean, obviously, you're seeing clients, so you're available. Do you see clients online? Couples online?

Inger: 32:29

Yeah, I do. And I need to say at the moment, Fiona, I'm only working online. And partly to do with I'm probably going to move house in the next year or so and it just doesn't seem the right

Fiona: 32:41

no opportunity for pooh sticks at the same time, but, importantly, you're available, but otherwise, how would people go about finding a Couples Therapist. There's Relate of course

Inger: 32:53

Relate, yeah, which actually I think Relate use both psychodynamic and systemic models. I think when those counsellors or therapists are taught, those models are both there. also if we look at the registers, for example, the regulated registers, for psychotherapists and counsellors, and Fiona and I would know of two of those. One is the organisation that we belong to, the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy, UKCP for short, and there's also the British Association of Psychotherapy and Counselling. They also have a register. And when I say register, the reason we talk about that is that those counsellors and psychotherapists registered in that way are being regulated and what we can guarantee anybody listening to this who wants to get a therapist that that therapist will be bona fide. Trained, accredited, all the rest of it.

Fiona: 33:53

it is really important because we know of people who set themselves up with tin pot qualifications and say, oh, yeah, I'll work with couples, because they don't know what they don't know. So, it is important to, to go to a reputable place to find your therapist.

Inger: 34:09

and actually I think when you said how do you find one, I mean both these websites, these organisations would have search engines and if you put in couple therapy, it'll show up various people in your area. I just want to add something about that, because there are a lot of therapists, even on the registers, who say that they do couple therapy, who may not have the same degree of training as, for example, somebody like myself, who was trained to be a couple therapist. And you might say, well what, now you're all confused, what on earth is that about? I would look when they list their qualifications have they got listed there a course that they did in couple therapy or family therapy? So I'm not trying to exclude, Fiona I need to say this to you, I'm not trying to exclude a whole load of people who might have done two year couple therapy courses but be psychodynamic for example. But I do worry about some of the websites, some of the directories, people put a long list of stuff that they do, and you do wonder, how do you know that they are specialists in those things?

Richard: 35:13

When they created online profile, they just Select All.

Fiona: 35:17

You can tick anything you like on, many of these directories. If it's a self selected list look at the CV of the person and see if they've actually got the specific training in the specific thing. Now, we don't have to go down to the minutiae in that, so not saying, if I've got fear of dogs, I have to have taken a course in fear of dogs. But the generic level, just being trained to be a psychotherapist, even though that just is four years at master's level, does not mean that you're necessarily qualified to work with couples. I'm not, Richard, you're not, and I have no intention of doing it. Sounds far too much like hard work.

Richard: 36:00

Yeah.

Inger: 36:01

can you imagine it's different, it's, it's in same way that group work is different. You've got two people in the room instead of one. Even that makes a big difference. so yeah.

Richard: 36:13

So seek out a therapist that you know knows what they're doing, are specifically trained. Thank you. Well Inger, it's been a wonderful chat, a wonderful natter to have with you, but we do need to wrap up. We need to disappear away for a week. I will add your contact details into the show notes if anybody would like to ask you any further questions. Then they'll know where to find you. Also in the show notes there's a link to a form on my website where you can ask me or Fiona some questions, submit some topic ideas and we'll do our best to natter about things that seem important to you. So, before we go, anything specific you want to say, Inger, before we wish these good people tarar?

Inger: 36:57

no, thank you very much. It's been very enjoyable.

Fiona: 37:01

been lovely to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

Richard: 37:03

Thank you, Inger. Right, let's go disco! Have a super week. See you all next time. Bye!

Fiona: 37:13

Bye!