Being A Client

This week Richard & Fiona are chatting with the author, consultant and human rights campaigner Julian Harrison about what it's like being in therapy.

https://julianharrison.wordpress.com 

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Transcript

Richard: 0:09

Hey everybody. Here we are again with another episode of Therapy Natters. If you've ever wondered what therapists talk about when we all get together at social events and collectively ignore all of our non therapist partners, then you've come to the right place.'cause this is exactly what it's like. Good day. Fiona. Welcome to a new episode. How you doing?

Fiona: 0:32

Hi. Yeah, I'm, I'm fine. Yes. I, we have had a few instances like that haven't we? Where uh, remember one where your wife was just sat in the corner thinking, what's going on?

Richard: 0:42

Oh, Bless her. Yeah, that's happened a few times. Yeah. At the birthday event. No, actually she, no, she, she, she's starting to engage. How can

Fiona: 0:52

I felt she was, she seemed quite happy to be doing that. I don't think she was, she wasn't suffering.

Richard: 0:59

She might think she was I'll have to have a word with her, but no, she, yeah, I don't think you can live with a therapist for very long and not soak up some of what it's like to be a therapist, because although we might not talk about our clients, Which I, I, maybe I'm projecting here, but I think we talk about the theory a lot and I guess it's about empathy. We will approach things as therapists with a slightly different perspective than most other people do. I think we've used this phrase before, we sit on the fence a lot and Dawn doesn't like it if I sit on the fence'cause she's like, I have an opinion. Oh, I do have an opinion, but I don't know all the facts. So I'm not really ready to share too much of my opinion.'cause it's not based on reality. I need more data. So. Oh, for goodness sake, just choose the duvet cover please. Oh, the blue one. Fine. Ah, so it's guest week. We have a guest this week, Fiona.

Fiona: 2:01

We do, we have Julian Harrison with us, and he's going to be giving us a very different perspective from any that we've had before, because part of Julian's uh, work portfolio is as an expert by experience. That's how I met Julian on a project that I've been working on since 2016 uh, which has now come to fruition, but it will continue. Which is about defining what counselors and psychotherapists actually do, the competency framework called Scoped, and Julian was brought into this a few years ago as one of the three experts by experience to help us put this framework together. And I tell you, you can blush now, Julian, their contribution has been Incredible. Made such a big difference. So, uh, one I don't lie usually. No, that was, it's completely genuine. It's, it's made a big difference to the process. So it's been really good. Also Julian, who lives in Leicester by the way, part of his portfolio is as a consultant on equality and diversity. So, lovely to have you with us, Julian. You are gonna be helping us see what therapy is like from a client's perspective. Of course, most therapists have been clients, but it's always, it's different. We recognise it's different. So hello. Thank you for joining us.

Julian: 3:23

Good morning to you both. Yeah, it's lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Richard: 3:28

Now part of being a therapist means you can't qualify, as a psychotherapist that is, you can't qualify unless you've had a significant amount of therapy yourself, just to clear the things that are in your past or the, the issues that you might have. And although there are some therapists that do it because they have to, and there are some that do it because they want to. And there are some that have already done it and that's why they became therapists in the first place.

Fiona: 3:58

I've had that conversation of why do I need to go for therapy? And it's very difficult to convey that to a trainee. They need to do it to find out. But that way that you described it as, as we have to, and some of us want to, some of us need to and don't know it. But from your perspective, Julian, I am presuming that you needed to, didn't just think, oh, that sounds like a nice, nice way to spend my Tuesday mornings.

Julian: 4:28

Yeah, my initial Experiences of therapy were were cognitive behavioral therapy, which, which, which tends to be the sort of go-to mechanism that gps and first line health service people focus on and then obviously I've experiences of psychotherapy and. Forms of therapy that I have not gotten a clue what they were entitled, but they were intensely useful. But I, I think initially my experiences were, well, this is something that I'm not sure I need, but if someone else tells me that I need it, I'll go along with it. My doctor who first came and said, describe, sort of looked at me and thought, right, you may well be depressed. Put me on a course of antidepressives. You sort of go onto it because, because someone else thinks it's the best thing for you to do. I have to say I was quite, I. I was quite cautious about it initially'cause I wasn't sure what, what on earth I could say. And I think maybe this is a male problem as well, but, but I remember the sort of first time I went, I was dragged to the GP by my, by my wife.'cause I started to talk about depression. This was about 20 years ago. And I said to her, You are gonna have to do the talking here because I'm not sure what I need to say. And I've since found out I'm autistic. And so there is that dimension. What, what do you say? I had no idea what to say. And as it happened, I actually could say more than I thought in that first thing. So, so I guess that that opened up the possibility that talking therapies, for want of a better word, may well be a viable option or still wasn't. I was, I'm not skeptical, but I wasn't sure quite what would happen as a result of this. Medication, you sort of, you have a little bit of an indication, you know, this is what it's supposed to do, this is the whole process of you going on it and so on. You've gotta keep on it. And talking? I thought, how does talking work. Wasn't quite sure how talking would work. So it took me a while to sort of, in a sort of therapeutic journey just to realize that, that this actually does have some benefits. it's like lots of things. The more you do it, the better it becomes. It's never an easy process, but it's a more straightforward, logical process in my mind and, and having to deal with autism as well. That was quite a big factor for me. So yeah, it, it initially it was like, Ooh, I'm not sure what this is. But, but say the more you do it, I think the more you realize this is this, this has some real big benefits and some real big tangible benefits as well.

Fiona: 6:52

It's interesting you're saying about the, the, the medication that you can see the, the linear root of how that works when actually nobody knows how antidepressants do work. But we, we are brought up to believe that if you take a pill, you get that result. So if you take an antibiotic, it kills the bacterial infection. So if you take an antidepressant, you will stop being depressed. But, it's, it is interesting to hear you say that because, You've got to the point where it seems, you can see that there's, there's more of a logical progression with the therapy.

Julian: 7:29

Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I, I think, I think with medication, as you say, I think that's exactly right. Fiona, you, you, you sort of think, well, and, and I initially thought, well, yeah, just I'll be on antidepressants for a bit but then I'll come off them.. And that'll be it. Like, like antibiotics, you know, I'll see it through to the end of the end of the course, then it'll go away and so on. Uh, I've, I've been on medication ever since, so I've been on medication for the last 20 years not the same medication. I hasten too add. You know, the, the journey in medication is often, you know, you, you, particularly if you're a man of a particular build and I'm, I'm quite a big build um, that you are on quite a high dosage. You reach the ceiling, it begins to lose its impact. You want something else. So, so it's a big journey, but I've always said that for me, what works is the combination of medication and therapy. It's not one or the other, it's a combination. Medication might keep me stable, but, is stability all someone searches for in life? I'm always trying to search for something else. I don't always get it, but I think I'm more likely to get it and I have been more likely to get it through therapy. And I think it's, it's not an add on, which is what I initially thought it was. It's a fundamental part of, of the way the medics do treat my mental health.

Fiona: 8:46

I was going to ask you to go back and discuss what the C B T was like, but then you said that, and I'm wondering if we have time to do both I, if you can, or wish to explain what is the something else that you are looking for and what have you found? If that's too personal.

Julian: 9:08

Yeah, no, no, that's absolutely fine. I, I mean, to say the initial bit of C B T that I had tried to address things as it as, as C B T does, but I, I was very quickly asking questions that C B T couldn't answer. I was saying, well, you know, this is all very good, but, but why am I depressed in the first place? Why, why do I have this condition? I have depression. I have O C D, I have anxiety disorder as well. And those, some of those have developed after the depression. But when I started asking those questions, of course, C B T didn't really provide any answers. It, it provided a way of dealing practically with the here and now, but I was wanting to know, well, how have I become this? Where does this come from? And trying to find a source, if you like, for my disability I thought was a better way of then enabling me to fundamentally address it on an ongoing basis. C B T gives you lots of, it does for me, lots of practical dimensions, these negative automatic thinking. Right, I go down this particular line, I do all that sort of stuff. Um, I think, I think it, it's a search. I mean, Viktor Frankl, who's a person I know from Holocaust I'm a Holocaust author as well. Um, Search, you know, that search for meaning that he talks about, that's fundamental to his being. And I thought, that's what I've been trying to go on, on a journey. what's the meaning of all, of all this? What, and, and I guess for me as well, Fiona, it was a question of turning the tables of not seeing mental illness and autism as a, defect as a disabling factor, even though of course they are disabling factors. It's to turn the coin and say, well, actually what, how can I benefit from having mental illness, if that makes sense? What can I do to, to, to make this into a sort of positive and to, to enable me to both help myself and other people? And I think that only really came when I had my sort of psychotherapy sessions and. I was very lucky. I got 40 weeks of psychotherapy sessions on the N H S. I know it's unheard of now, isn't it? I mean we are talking 20 years ago. Uh, But I had 40 weeks and I remember the counselor her name was Jules, funny enough. And that's, my definitive name as well, so it was Jules and Jules really. And she was fantastic. She, opened my eyes. she made me confront some things that I was probably very, very uh, reluctant to confront at the time. But now know that they were a necessary challenge for me to move on. Um, I've not through all of it, but you know.

Fiona: 11:48

Were those things from your past or elements of yourself?

Julian: 11:53

Yeah, no, the, the, the, well both, I guess. I mean the, the big confrontation for me was very much seeing, i, I, I lost my dad when I was a teenager and I was the eldest of three brothers. Um, my middle brother had down syndrome. And so what I had to confront very quickly was my dad made some requests of me before he died that were all about you need to take on my mantle and take on my role and look after your mom, look after your brothers, and so on. And so, so, so I became a carer. Very, very, very, I mean, I already was a carer for Danny, my, my Down Syndrome brother. But yeah, having to confront my relationship with my dad was a big factor. I at the time thought, I cannot say any fault in my dad. I cannot, and this, this was something actually led to my O C D developing that I had to have positive thoughts about my dad, blah, blah, blah, blah. And when Jules, my, my psychotherapist, started asking some questions as to whether this was an entirely profitable uh, situation. Then it was, oh my God, I've now got to think of my dad slightly differently if I'm gonna get over this, blockage that was, it's all my fault. Maybe the demands that my dad put on me were unfair, you know? And that was a massive, massive thing. And I, I've confronted that not always smoothly. But if I hadn't had that psychotherapy, that would still be a blockage. I would never have moved on.

Fiona: 13:24

And that sounds like it's, it's a, a really excellent example of where that, I would imagine that sort of psychodynamic therapy to give it a name of, of the looking back and looking at patterns and where things originated. But then when it, it sort of rears its little ugly head again in current life, some of the C B T techniques such as the ants and pets. you can then squidge the ants more easily because you know that they're ants and that it's not true and so on. So it seems like a interesting

Julian: 14:01

I think, I think, I think the way you, you phrased that because you know it's not true, is a really fundamental thing because what I fixed up in my mind were very fixed notions about people around me and my relationship with them. And to actually break that down and to ask some fundamental questions that say, well, actually, you know, is it true that my dad was this mega superhuman star that I, I saw no fault in? Was that true? Was the fact that he asked me to take responsibility. Was that a profitable and an easy thing for me to do? Was it a fair thing for me to go into? And I'd never questioned that. And so for 10, 15 years, I, that was what I'm gonna do this, after my Dad died, this is my role now. Any deficiency In I saw in myself the ants tried to pick up on once I'd had some C B T. Didn't always work. But yeah, those therapy sessions started to unravel things and the key factor, I think Fiona was recognizing and, and she, Jules told me this very, very quickly. She says, you do realize from the conversations we're having that you've been depressed all your life. You know, your childhood memories that you are, that you are recounting to me are stories of depression, are stories of mental illness. And, and I was thinking this was something that I'd potentially developed in later, you know, in my sort of early adult years. But, but, but no, they'd always been there. So that was a bit of a revelation to me, really. And, and if I had not had that therapy I would've still been stuck in that sort of those looped things that don't actually go anywhere, if that makes some sort of sense.

Richard: 15:54

C B T can be very, very useful or any solution focused approach where somebody comes in and says, I've got this very specific issue

Julian: 16:05

Hmm.

Richard: 16:05

and I'd like to learn how to not have that issue. Great. Let's, let's look at some coping strategies. Let's, let's teach you, there's a little bit of psychoeducation, but let's, let's teach you how to overcome this

Julian: 16:19

mm.

Richard: 16:20

with many issues that I see clients bringing into the therapy room. Maybe it's because I, I've now attracted the clients that need deeper work, but very few would have a resolution to their problems with C B T alone.

Julian: 16:41

Absolutely. Yeah.

Richard: 16:42

But I think it is still very useful and the psychodynamic therapists, I think, still could do, should do C B T and vice versa.

Julian: 16:51

I do get the value of CBT I mean, I've, I've had one big thing this morning. For example, my, my, for some reason my main PC is not getting internet access, whereas my laptop is. And so I'm like, ah, this is a temporary thing. I've done all the usual stuff. Turned it on and off, all that stuff, stuff still no internet access. So of course my anxiety disorder rises massive to the top. I'm now thinking, right, I'm, I'm never gonna be able to use my PC again because I need the access to the internet from it. And then of course you go into that trap, that thinking trap. Right, if I'm never gonna use that again, I'll never be able to work properly. Uh, If I can't work properly I won't get any money. If I don't get any money, we can't pay the, bills and, and straightaway the catastrophization hits in. And just because hopefully it's a temporary issue, just because you can't get some internet access, suddenly you've lost your house, you've lost your family, and actually, is there any point in living? So it, it, it escalates so quickly. And I've not had time to sort of employ some of the C B T stuff. that's usually in my mind to do it. But I know in previous situations when I have something like that, a temporary, immediate thing that is going to hamper my mental health that CBT sometimes, not all the time, can work. And sometimes I need my wife to prompt the C B T. Why are you thinking like that? Why, why you, you know, so she becomes that, that, that, the flip side of the coin, the other side of the paper and everything like that. And then, and then I'd, I'd then be able to have confidence to go into it. But then of course, you go back to that fundamental question that I had right at the start of my first CBT was well, Why does this escalate in my head anyway? What, why are these intrusive thoughts in there? You know, what is it about me and, and so on and, and C B T then for me, I mean it might work in a different way for other people, but C B T then isn't sufficient. It doesn't address the bigger things. And I don't know whether that is, it's, you know, lots of people probbaly confronted by mental health for the first time are looking, everybody's looking for a quick win solution, aren't they? They, they're looking for something that, that, that is gonna quickly happen, take it away, dealt with no problem. The antibiotic syndrome, you know, this very quickly. It takes it away and so on.

Fiona: 19:12

Yeah, I mean, why, why on earth wouldn't you look for a quick solution? I mean, it would

Julian: 19:16

it's it's the logical.

Fiona: 19:19

You've, you've just explained something there really, really neatly Julian, of the different thought patterns happening at the same time. So you've got catastrophization, you've got the part of you that's, I don't have time to deal with this catastrophization right now. But when I do, I know that I've got these techniques and then, then I've got my wife who will, and you know what your wife's going to do.

Julian: 19:44

Mm-hmm.

Fiona: 19:45

So you've got all those different strands that you've developed.

Julian: 19:49

Mm-hmm.

Richard: 19:50

And I wonder if knowing that when you need to, you'll be able to interrupt those automatic negative thoughts,

Julian: 19:58

Yeah.

Richard: 19:59

might mean that those thoughts just disappear by themselves Because, well, I, when that gets on top of me, I know I'll be able to deal with it.

Fiona: 20:06

If you've got ants crawling across your floor, but for some reason you cannot get up right now, let's say I cannot get up right now without interrupting this process. If I had a stream of ants, I would know that I could deal with them later, so it doesn't matter. So yes.

Julian: 20:22

It, I, I find it very difficult to try and step back from the process. I do inequality diversity. I, I do a lot of stuff on unconscious bias. And the unconscious bias, obviously, when you're talking about your brain will come up with these incredibly quick judgements and assessments of the world around you. Sometimes they might be really punitive, but allow your conscious brain to begin to tick over and then you'll assess whether these things are actually valid or not. And that's very much obviously me and C B T and, and that anxiety is, is really bad because your anxiety sometimes, It doesn't allow you to start that C B T line process. You have this horrible period, and I, I'm still feeling it as I'm saying this at the moment'cos I've not resolve the issue of like paranoia, panic. Total discomfort within your body. Your stomach is churning, your head is throbbing. Your, your heartbeat is racing. you've got to somehow allow yourself to start that process of recovery, but it, it doesn't click in straight away. You've gotta, sometimes you've gotta go through this horrible period of time that, that, you know, sometimes for me includes self-harm. When I'm really agitated, I will punch my head which obviously doesn't do much good other than give me concussion usually. But, but sometimes when that happens and you think. How long have I got to go through this process before my brain will allow me to start ticking into, to working properly again? That can be really, really difficult to go through it. But I think having the context of recognizing why this is the case and what on a broader fit level I can do to give some sort of meaning to my life. If I didn't have that enough, I was just solely troubleshooting. You can't just troubleshoot in your life and that's the only part of your life getting over one hurdle and then another and another. Otherwise, what's life worth living for? If that was the case, I'm not sure I'll be here. I think I would've succumbeded to the suicidal ideation that somehow comes into my brain from time to time, you know?

Richard: 22:32

Well, a couple of weeks ago we were talking about autism with Paula Stone and she mentioned a statistic that uh, autistic people are eight times more likely to take their own life

Julian: 22:44

Yeah. It doesn't surprise me. Yeah.

Richard: 22:45

eight times.

Julian: 22:46

Eight times

Richard: 22:48

And that is

Julian: 22:49

staggering isn't,

Richard: 22:51

It really is. And the more that people can understand, as early in their life as possible, that talking about how they feel, learning about how they feel and why they feel what they feel, and learning some ways of, of dealing with those, those feelings, whether that is talking or whether that is meditation or nature or walking or art or coloring in or some better behavior that still resolves some motor action, for example, rather than banging your head until you become concussed. The more that we can learn about this, the better a society we're gonna have for everybody. Absolutely vital.

Julian: 23:38

One of the big things that I need to confront at the moment, is the realization that, if I was depressed for all my life. Why did it take till I was 30 odd for it to be recognized either in myself or by someone else. And even more recently I've only just come across my autism in the last two years. I'm 54 now, you know, 52 years of living with autism without, actually recognizing this as autism. So, one of my big issues at the moment is trying to address that sense of bitterness and that sense of loss. You know, why didn't anybody notice this? Why did I not notice it? I just thought it was normal. How can you know if you live with something all your life? I, I thought life was depressing. I thought my autistic mind was reality, that was normal. Only when somebody says, well, actually you have this condition and this is, this is how it is. We're gonna diagnose you with anxiety disorder, this sort of stuff. And you think, oh, and somebody telling me well actually you've always been like this and I thought Yeah, I have always been like this, but why didn't somebody mention it? Why didn't somebody tell me? Teachers, parents, colleagues. I had a conversation very recently, with a colleague that I knew when I first started work. So I was in my early twenties and I, I asked her, did you realize that I was mentally ill? Oh, yeah.

Richard: 24:57

Oh,

Julian: 24:57

the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all knew, we all, we all knew and and thought that you were mentally ill. There was a bit of me that says, well, they didn't tell me! But she then says, well, what would we have said? So I, I guess it's that question, isn't it it's that hypothetical

Fiona: 25:11

maybe they just didn't know you didn't know,

Julian: 25:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Fiona: 25:16

but it's also We don't talk about these things

Julian: 25:18

I That's true.

Richard: 25:19

yeah, I think of it a little bit like my birthmark. I have a huge birthmark Fiona. Do you know about my birthmark?

Fiona: 25:30

I did not know you had a birthmark.

Richard: 25:32

Neither did I until quite recently.'cause it's on the back of my head.

Julian: 25:35

Ah!

Richard: 25:37

It is on the back of my head and my neck. It's about four inches long and about two inches wide. I didn't know it was there.

Julian: 25:44

Wow.

Richard: 25:45

It only showed itself when I started shaving my head and the only reason I started shaving my head is because I was losing it on the top and thought stuff it. I'm gonna take the whole lot off.

Julian: 25:54

Yeah.

Richard: 25:54

And my son mentioned it. It was about five years ago I think. We just come back from the barbers and they did mine at the same time for free. And he said, every time you come back from the barbers, I see your birthmark. I'm like, my what?

Julian: 26:09

Ah,

Richard: 26:11

But it's on the back of my head. So I've never known it was there. And maybe, maybe for a long. Yeah, well, like my son said, he knew it was there'cause he saw it every time we come back from the barbers, he assumed I knew it was there. How, how could he not know? He is my dad, I know it's there. But nobody had ever mentioned it because it was hardly ever visible. It's only visible when you start peeling back the layers and having a closer look at yourself.

Julian: 26:39

mm

Richard: 26:40

You ask a fish what it feels like to be wet. He doesn't know what the hell are you talking about?

Julian: 26:43

Yeah, yeah.

Richard: 26:44

Also it's a fish.

Julian: 26:46

Well, I guess if you are open about your mental illness, and I've always been open about my mental illness, then you become a little bit of a magnet to other people who may be struggling with their mental illness for the first time and who are very cautious and very uh, scared at times of actually going and uh, initially seeing a gp. And then even thinking about going into, into counseling, so forth. So they'll come to somebody that already has it and they'll think, ah, right, maybe they'll get a quick solution outta this. And then you hear them describing life before and life now. And it's a bit like, I guess if somebody has never had their sight, but in comparison to somebody who has just lost their sight. If you've never had sight, you dunno what you're missing. If you lose your sight as you get older. Yes, you do know what's missing. So I've never known a life without mental illness and obviously without autism it, it just has not been there. So that, for me was always, the word normal, obviously is problematic, but you know, was the normal state of play for me. So, It was only when I started to realize that, my reactions to things were flavored if not controlled by my mental illness. And that they were not necessarily the same reactions that other people had. And when you saw people doing things around you that you recognized that you. Don't do, or you felt that you couldn't do. You then start to ask some questions? I think that was part of my psychotherapy journey as well, or my therapy journey was, well, how do I ask this? What questions should I ask? You know, how can you help me to, to, uncover this big part of me that's, that's laid dormant, if not completely hidden. How do you open that Pandora's box? I don't know. You know, and I think that, that was a major factor in recognizing that. And as I say, I was very lucky. 40 weeks on, on the NHS. It doesn't happen now. And having the person that I did have it saved my life at the time undoubtedly. And probably continues to save my life as, as I go through it now, you know.

Richard: 28:57

Is there anything that you wish you knew beforehand that you've learned since?

Julian: 29:04

That's a good question.

Richard: 29:05

Sorry to put you on the spot there, Julian.

Julian: 29:07

no, no, it's, it's a good question. I, I guess probably if I'd have realized that this was a disability as opposed to this was a reflection of Me. I thought that I saw things entirely as, as like, this is a deficiency in me. This is a, this is, this is, this is not as punishment for me. Yeah, I did think that at times I thought, this is punishment. I dunno what punishment for, but you know, this is the way I've been made to, you know, to deal with it. And rather than see it as something that could be overcome, I saw it as being something that was a flaw. I dunno if that makes some sort of sense. That, that this was some sort of, yeah. Punishment and infliction that had been imposed on me for something that I'd done.

Richard: 29:59

As if you deserved it?

Julian: 30:00

As if I deserved it. Yeah. As if I deserved it. It was only when I started to confront issues around one of the promises you see I'd made to my dad was that I would look after my brother Danny, who had Down Syndrome. And then Danny died when he was 25. So this is this, he, Danny died in 1996, so it's a long time ago now, and he died because The N H S would not give him the heart and lung transplant that he needed because he had Down Syndrome. Which is something that I'm trying to work my way through at the moment. But when he died, I realized, I mean, I only realized after therapy that, that I considered his death has been my fault. Because I'd not looked after him. I thought somewhere in my head that I should be able to will him to live. I should be able to make him live. Irrespective of his heart condition that was fatal. I thought I'd let my dad down and that, that as a consequence when I began to knew, right, I have this mental, that's why. Because I'd not done what I said I would do, and it took me, you know, for Jules to start asking me these questions about, well, you know, do you think it was fair for your dad to make you to think like that? Is it fair? Is the interpretation you made of looking after Danny a realistic interpretation? And I'd never addressed those questions. Uh, I just thought, yes, yep, it's my job, boom. Uh, I've not done it right. This is the punishment. Uh, Who was punishing me? I've no idea. you know, I wouldn't say it's God because even though I'm Jewish, I'm not really that religious in that sort of sense. But I thought that's fate. I'm, I'm bound to have this and that has taken a lot and I've still not quite got, well, I haven't, I've still not got through that.

Richard: 31:51

And maybe. those are thoughts and a schema or a belief that you'll carry possibly, potentially for the rest of your life. It will, it's, it's possible it will always be there, and that's ok

Fiona: 32:03

I'd almost say that's sort of good.'cause you wouldn't want it to just disappear.'cause that wouldn't be real, would it?

Julian: 32:08

no.

Richard: 32:09

but people, they, they ask for that. how can you take this out of me? Oh,

Fiona: 32:17

Yes, take it out of me. Change my past. Make it all different.

Julian: 32:21

Yeah. I'll tell you what it reminds me of. You know in the film Green Mile, where you, have got the, what's his name? John Coffey. You have this character in that, this giant of a man. That somehow, and you see it when he's trying to get the condition out of, was it, it's Tom Hanks, isn't it? And, and various characters by taking it into his mouth and then inflicting it on his body, and then in some way, shape or form, being able to release it. That to me is a little bit of a metaphor of this. Like I, I was taking all that stuff. Outta life, not just my dad's life, Danny's life, but life in general. I was taking it all in and it was staying there and I had no idea how to release this. and whilst I've been on this, this therapeutic journey, it's started to release, but then there are periods when the mouth shuts again and it becomes internalized. And I can't release it. And I know at the moment with all these relationships and stuff, with my brother uh, with Danny uh, it, there is a lot in there that's in, there's something that's preventing my mouth fully open. It allows a little bit out, but then it clamps shut again. And. If I didn't have, I mean, C B T can't do anything for me in that respect. It, it doesn't, doesn't deal with that fundamental part of you. But the therapeutic journey and, and other things as well, you know, some practical day-to-day things that sometimes do have an impact on the bigger picture. All of that combination I'm hoping is going to release my mouth to be wider but I think Fiona, you are exactly right. I don't think I would ever really be content to let it all out.

Fiona: 34:08

There was something earlier and I can't exactly remember what it was we were saying, but singing came into my head and I was, what the hell are you thinking singing for? What's that about? And then you're talking about not being able to open your mouth wide enough to let things out. So it just came back to me again, singing

Richard: 34:31

mm

Julian: 34:32

That's exactly it Yeah.

Fiona: 34:34

It can be singing can be very therapeutic. I was belting out, this is me at my Hen do not my Hen do I haven't had a Hen do I had a Hen do last weekend. And just that, I mean, that's trivial, but it's, it's just, I.

Julian: 34:49

Absolutely right. I look back at things like my school uh, records and reports and stuff. And, and the. Perennial issue is, you know, there's more in Julian than, than actually comes out. You know, he's, he's keeping a lot in, And I realized that, you know, this wasn't a choice. This was the way life, my, my body and my mind worked, you know, I, I would love to release in, in the sort of way that I saw people around me releasing, but, but I just was not able to do that. And I think maybe part of my reflection on my mental health journey, once had a diagnosis of mental illness, has been about, the open house thing. You know, the transparent thing. I'm not going to be coy about my mental illness. I'm gonna talk about my mental illness. I'm gonna talk to other people about my mental illness. I'm gonna talk about suicide. I'm gonna talk about self-harm. I'm gonna talk about regret. I'm gonna talk about these things. Has been that that attempt to fight back and to, to allow um, that release to happen. But I do know that there are major aspects of my life that are still within me that I'm trying to work out how to release it. And then I, that's when I come back to some of the therapeutic situations that I've been in. The reflections on, on, on the sessions I had with Jules I've had, I've had subsequent private therapy with, with, with people as well. So all of that is, is something that is still there. And, I do want to let go of it, but I'm cautious of what that might mean to my state of mind, I guess.

Richard: 36:32

Yeah,

Julian: 36:33

It's, I know what, I know. I can see myself, but being somebody else

Richard: 36:38

hmm.

Julian: 36:38

Is frightening.

Richard: 36:40

I think of it like being um, a big bottle of pop

Julian: 36:44

Mm-hmm.

Richard: 36:45

and you shake it and shake it and shake it and shake it. And it just gets, the pressure just builds and builds and builds. And a bit like a soda stream. If you just keep putting more fiz and then you shake it a bit more and you put more fiz in and more fiz in, it's just gonna explode. And I, I think therapy as being a place where you can metaphorically put some towels down. Put the bottle of pop in the middle of the room and just open it and just clean up the mess. It's fine. Just let, let it make a mess. Let it make a mess in here. It's absolutely fine. And then we can put the lid back on. But the thing is, that's now a flat bottle of pop, and that's not who I am. I'm not a flat bottle of pop. This is who I am. I am this fizzy person. I don't want to be flat or do I, do I wanna be flat? And what does that mean to be more of a cordial, a squash than it does to be a bottle of pop. You know, it means changing your whole identity and changing the way that you see yourself and how you fit in in the world.

Julian: 37:44

Yes. with Danny and Down Syndrome I was always having to confront that issue of, if we have a cure for Down syndrome, you know, what would that mean? how would my brother, if there had to been a cure for Down Syndrome and it would've happened, who would my brother have been?

Richard: 38:01

wouldn't have been him,

Fiona: 38:01

Mm.

Julian: 38:02

And it's a bit like that with me. If there was a cure for my mental illness, and I, and I, I've been told by virtually every therapist that I've had Jules was the, first one to recognize it. Whilst you've always been depressed, the chances are you are always going to be depressed because you have recurrent depression. That's just the way it is. On my, little form that I get when I see my consultant. There it is recurrent depressive episodes, depressive disorder and all that. So I know it's always gonna be within me, and I have these conversations sometimes with people and uh, well, surely you'd wanna be totally rid of it. And I thought, well, yes and no. Who would I be if I didn't have mental illness, who would I be if I wasn't autistic? I wouldn't recognize myself. I'd be somebody fundamentally different in some respects. And then this is where I, I guess I've tried to reinvent myself my thinking is that, and I do believe this very strongly, that, that having a mental illness and being autistic and maybe having a disability full stop actually does help you be a little bit more empathetic to people to other peoples vulnerabilities. That is really important to me. You know, particularly in my work equality and diversity, having that, that that focus on vulnerability, disadvantage, discriminate, all those sorts of things. I thought if I didn't have that, if mental illness went away, would it take away that as well? I don't want it to take away that as well. So actually I want to be mentally ill and then when I voice that in those ways to somebody they says, well, surely you don't wanna be mentally ill. I says Well, who would I be? So you ask those questions and I think that's part of the, the, trying to see a positive out of a situation. And I have to see a, trying to see a positive out of a situation. Otherwise, you know, mental illness would drag me down to a level that I would never be able to function.

Fiona: 39:50

I think we could carry on for

Julian: 39:51

well we have, we've been talking for a while

Richard: 39:55

Yeah, I'm not editing this down to 30 minutes. No, it's gonna be an extra long

Fiona: 39:59

It's gonna be a long one, but that's great. It's really good. So thank you.

Richard: 40:04

Thank.

Fiona: 40:04

Julian,

Richard: 40:05

Thank you. thank you.

Julian: 40:06

It's been an

Fiona: 40:07

your world

Julian: 40:09

Bless you. It's been nice. I've, I, I, I love, I, I say I love doing this. Yes, I do love doing this. You know, there's always a repercussion, you know, the challenge comes after. You've let a lot out.

Richard: 40:22

Mm.

Julian: 40:22

But to have the opportunity to say this in such a wonderful setting that you've provided. A sort of very informal, very relaxed, very sympathetic, empathetic, very, you know, caring type of situation. It is good and it does do people good to talk. Really does

Fiona: 40:40

Thank you

Richard: 40:41

we better love them and leave them. We for a week. If you need us, you know where to find us. Like I always say, there's a, a link in the notes to the episode, to a page on my website where you can fill in a form, ask us a question, give us a topic idea. Maybe you wanna come on the show, maybe you've got something you wanna share. Feel free to ask. It doesn't hurt the worst we can do is go, we'll add you onto a list. That's the worst that can happen, and then we'll get to you if it's appropriate. Huh, maybe I'll miss that out in the edit. You know, we'll see about that. We'll let everybody go. Have a super week. You take care everybody. Bye-Bye.

Fiona: 41:17

bye.